Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. Sympathetic_Reaction

    Sympathetic_Reaction LE Book Reviewer

    Okay, waiting for HE117 or Dingerr to read this.

    I just picked up an ammo box to stick my tools in and don't recognise the ammunition type, so hoping someone can help me.

    2Rds. 105mm HOW, HE, Training L65A1

    Filled 10/90 - FFE stencil on the outside is dated '93. (so wasn't around long, used or obselete?)

    Its before my time in the ammunition world and I can't find any reference online.

    I know what was in the box, the batch sticker has all the details on the round/charge/fuze lots - they were using some old fuzes up - L112A1 from 1979.

    The internal cardboard tubes came with it and they are a little odd, double the length I would have expected for a 105mm with the fuze cavity central to the tube, I assume it was a charge/round combined into one tube but seperate units.

    Anyway to round off my education can someone confirm the gun that fired it.

    Thanks

    S_R
     
  2. L119?

    It was a mod of L118, used for M119 export and saw use at Larkhill for demo purposes about that time... classed as a howitzer.
     
  3. Brotherton Lad

    Brotherton Lad LE Reviewer

    Found this on line:

    The obvious gun would be the L118, but I'm no expert. PS, the advert was on a New Zealand trading site, which may be relevant.

    http://www.army.mil.nz/our-army/equipment/weapons/indirectfire.htm
     
  4. Sympathetic_Reaction

    Sympathetic_Reaction LE Book Reviewer

    Yes that's the only other reference I could find...same item described.
     
  5. As already stated, the British Army used the L118 Pack How.

    The L65, although HE, was probably designated training due to some failing at Proof or trials that prevented it from being fired operationally. It may have been part of a series of projectiles with shlatter welded base plates that detached on firing. So it would not be allowed to fire over the heads of troops for example.
     
  6. Pretty sure this ammo was for an L119, as used in Larkhill at around that time for demo purposes.

    L119 used 105mm ammo that was in one part not two. It was designated M119 for export/licence construction... anyone like to guess what gun the New Zealand Army uses according to Brotherton Lads link?

    ETA the Larkhill L119s might also have been used for training international troops of those nations who had purchased the L119 (regardless of what they themselves call it).
     
  7. The M119 is the American L118, easy to get confused.

    There are 3 main systems for large caliber shells - QF Fixed, QF Seperate and Breech Loading. QF (quick fire) consists of a round and a cartridge case - QF fixed means the shell are cart case are received fixed together. E.g 105mm Tank.

    QF seperate means the shell and the cart case are received as seperate components which are married together prior to firing. Ammunition for the L118 is QF Seperate. It is packed in many forms.

    BL ammunition consists of a projectile and seperate charge - 120mm Tk and 155mm are such examples.
     
  8. Not when you've loaded the L119 at Larkhill at around the time the OP suggests...

    From the wiki.
    The L118, was modified to to the L119. In US service it is the M119 and in Austrailian and New Zealand service it is the L119...

    The ammunition came out of the boxes as one, but could be split to remove 'charge', it was loaded as a single entity, rather han the L118s shell then cartridge.

    I'm not completely up onthis sort of thing, but if you spend a day loading one of these fcukers you sort of remember it!

    I admit I don't know what most of the bits and bobs on the size of a mmo box means though.

    ETA link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M119_howitzer
     
  9. CF are you telling me how the ammunition comes out the boxes?
     
  10. Probably but mainly as an aide to my own memory.

    I'm well aware you're a AmmoTech, and I am quite happy to admit you are probably all over ammo and things that go bang.

    However, I am guessing I am right in that an L118 is loaded shell then charge, L/M119 is loaded as a single.
     
  11. Oh my god! I feel your pain! One time...at band camp....I was given a rover 110 to drive. I spent ages wondering who had driven it before me, and what bone tasks it had been on before I got my mitts on it.
     
  12. '105mm How' is the UK designation for US 105mm M1 type ammo. It was first used by UK in 1942 with the 105mm M7 SP (AKA Priest in UK service).

    L5 PH with L 10 Ordnance (Oto-Melara's Pack How) used the M1 ammo, once UK production started in the early 60s and to avoid confusion the US design stuff was call How and the new UK designed 105mm arty ammo was called Fd (also elimianted confusion with 105mm Tk ammo.

    When L109 SP with L13 ordnance (AKA Abbot) entered service the interim ammo involved the 105mm Fd cart and 105mm How shell.

    L118 Light Gun was designed to fire 105mm Fd ammo (ie same as Abbot), the original intention was to use the interim Abbot ammo for training (presumably the Fd shell was more expensive than the How one).

    However, the end of the mass TA (caused by the end of conscription and the mandatory 4yrs TA service after conscript service) meant that the Pack Hows and their ammo stocks that had been earmarked for TA to replace 25-pr became 'available', there was no UK use for the guns once Lt Gun entered service but the ammo stocks offered a cheap training solution for Lt Gun, by quickly developing an ordnance for the light gun carriage that fired 105mm How ammo. The new ordnance was L20 (the 'proper' one was L19), and had a heavy muzzlebrake to compensate for its shorter barrel and maintain a bit of balance in the gun (and make it easier to traverse the trail).

    L118 with L19 ordnance fires 105mm Fd ammo, the L118 with L20 ordnance was designated L119. The carriages are identical
    Once 105mm How ammo stocks ran out (about 10 yrs ago) there was no further need for L119 and they were disposed of (UK only ever had 14 of them, 2 btys at Larkhill).

    Needless to say Aust screwed it up by buying/producing one of each ordnance for each carriage, then didn't get the money to adopt 105 Fd ammo, over a hundred L19 ordnance, hardly used, have recently been disposed of. US only wanted to use their M1 type ammo so produced L119 and called in M119. Elsewhere some countries have used the real thing, others just the L119. There was prototype ordnance for Swiss 105mm ammo designated L21, I suspect this didn't work well because the Swiss ammo had significantly higher MV and was probably a longer barrel, togther it was probably too much for the carriage.
     
  13. Everyday's a school day!

    The L119s were used for training Ph2s on then?
     
  14. Sympathetic_Reaction

    Sympathetic_Reaction LE Book Reviewer

    Ahh the joys of sarcasm on a saturday morning.

    S_R
     
  15. Sympathetic_Reaction

    Sympathetic_Reaction LE Book Reviewer

    Thanks for ths info people...think it's answered my question.

    S_R