L/Cpl of Horse Matty Hulls death unlawful

Voyager

Old-Salt
Well let's hope the MoD scraps those ZIL-157s the British Army is apparently equipped with - they are seriously confusing to USAF pilots -

Zil 157

Must be real greybeards flying those A-10s since the USSR stopped building Zil-157s in 1979 - but those British chug along with their old Warsaw Pact kit.....or they could issue some of this stuff to even the odds

Iraqi AD equipment
 

predatorplus

War Hero
What I want to know is we have sent Brits over to the US to face their justice system…
But doesn’t work the other way around, when will these pilots face our justice system? Or even give evidence?
If it was RAF attacking US forces then they would demand the pilots to be sent to the US for trile…
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
predatorplus said:
If it was RAF attacking US forces then they would demand the pilots to be sent to the US for trile…
That happened in Korea and they didn't.

Don't forget, the yanks shoot their own callsigns up even more than they go after us. The USAF was called something like the American Luftwaffe in 1944/45 as they kept bombing US army as they pressed eastwards, though I blame Patton a certain amount for this, he pushed his forces into areas that were German owned when the air attack was planned...
 
This has nothing to do with software or hardware. It has everything to do with attitude.

When the cockpit tapes were played on the news recently, the key phrase was one where ''orange rockets'' were mentioned. As soon as I heard that I immediately thought ''not orange rockets you biff, orange recognition panel.''

I'm not a pilot, I never have been a pilot. I was a simple Infantryman, those who know me will testify to this..... but I would have thought a combat pilot would have made the connection between the orange showing on top of the vehicles and the orange panels worn by friendlies.

You could hear the surprise in the response from the other pilot when ''orange rockets'' were identified.
 
Jacob1650 said:
This has nothing to do with software or hardware. It has everything to do with attitude.

When the cockpit tapes were played on the news recently, the key phrase was one where ''orange rockets'' were mentioned.
That is a good point. I believe the two US pilots involved in this incident were reservists - Air National Guard.

Does anybody know anything about how ANG pilots are recruited and trained in America? Are they commercial pilots who do short periods of military training like TA specialists?

predatorplus said:
What I want to know is we have sent Brits over to the US to face their justice system…
But doesn’t work the other way around, when will these pilots face our justice system? Or even give evidence?
Last I heard, the US government had not ratified the new extradition treaty. Hence it applies to us but not to them.

Our government won't do anything about this as any unpleasantness will have an adverse affect on Tony's future income from book sales and the lecture circuit in America.
 

Voyager

Old-Salt
They were regular USAF pilots who had left the military to fly civilian but were on the reserve list


Blue on Blue

Kohntopp

He spent 14 years on active duty with the United States Air Force during which he flew the F-117 Nighthawk "stealth fighter." Khontopp flew combat missions with the 190th Fighter Squadron during the 2003 invasion of Iraq. On February 6, 2007, he was identified by the British tabloid The Sun as "POPOV36",
 

noddysigs

Swinger
its a tough call, in gulf 1 , when the yanks shot up a few of 7 bdes vehs, the pilot ask for authentication of the target 3 times because he knew the targets were friendly forces. If American intel is anything like ours we are all doomed. I remember Maj Gen cordingly (THEN BRIG) telling us that we will be taking 50% cas! Im am sure one doesnt need to confirm a target over the radio. thats why the good lord gave us eyes and a brain.
 
Ancient_Mariner said:
When the cockpit tapes were played on the news recently, the key phrase was one where ''orange rockets'' were mentioned.
That is a good point. I believe the two US pilots involved in this incident were reservists - Air National Guard.

Does anybody know anything about how ANG pilots are recruited and trained in America? Are they commercial pilots who do short periods of military training like TA specialists?
We've been over this on the other thread on the subject, complete with a picture of an Arabic vehicle with what could look like orange rockets on the top.

More often than not, ANG/AFRES pilots are pilots who have done their US Air Force regular time, got out of the service, went to commercial aviation, but decided to keep in the reserves of the Air Force either because it's fun, or because of a desire to serve. There are some recruited straight from Civvy-Street into the reserve cockpit, but I am of the impression that they are a minority in number.

This is pretty common amongst US reserve units, I don't know how common it is in the TA: By and large, the experience levels of personnel in US Reserve units is as high if not higher than that of Regular Army units simply because of the amount of troops who have already done their Regular Army time before joining the reserves. Their perishable skills like "switchology" or maintainance etc are degraded due to lack of use, but more constructive skills are not degraded to the extent that it seems some would believe.

NTM
 
Voyager said:
Well let's hope the MoD scraps those ZIL-157s the British Army is apparently equipped with - they are seriously confusing to USAF pilots -

Zil 157

Must be real greybeards flying those A-10s since the USSR stopped building Zil-157s in 1979 - but those British chug along with their old Warsaw Pact kit.....or they could issue some of this stuff to even the odds

Iraqi AD equipment
Especially if the zils are equipped with those nasty orange rockets the Americans are so afraid of
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
fingers_1661 said:
As always i'm struggling with phrases used by the media to explain what happened. They observed, aquired, engaged & destroyed vehicles on the ground in much the same manner as someone might bag a brace of grouse on 12 August. No mention of 'accident' was mentioned until a sewage cart hit a windmill

(ie lots of sh*t & a very big FAN!!)
If they had spent as much time identifying the targets as a game shooter to stay within the law it wouldnt have happened!
 

4(T)

LE
The US simply weren't experienced with working with allies who are so poorly equipped. Most of any blame - if such an accident of war should be dissected by a civilian coroner years after the event - lies with the MoD and CoC for the abysmal lack of air-ground comms and recognition facilities in UK forces. Asking fast foreign jet pilots to ID a dirty orange rag from x thousand feet is no substitute for buying proper IFF equipments of various types - especially given that it was so obvious they'd be needed. This was one incident that ended in tragedy - but there were plenty of others that came close.
 

GwaiLo

War Hero
Mr Happy said:
predatorplus said:
If it was RAF attacking US forces then they would demand the pilots to be sent to the US for trile…
That happened in Korea and they didn't.

Don't forget, the yanks shoot their own callsigns up even more than they go after us. The USAF was called something like the American Luftwaffe in 1944/45 as they kept bombing US army as they pressed eastwards, though I blame Patton a certain amount for this, he pushed his forces into areas that were German owned when the air attack was planned...
But Korea was some time ago. We now have an extradition treaty with the USA which is completely one sided. If they want someone extradited all they have to do is ask and it happens.
 

Voyager

Old-Salt
If orange panels don't do it maybe British troops should wear red uniforms like in the old days - Americans can recognise redcoats - they learn that in school
 
surely its clear that, upon seeing "orange" - whether the pilots thought that they might possibly be rockets or anything else - the correct action on seeing something which may represent identification marker panels would have been to go in lower and get a positive ID on exactly what the target was before firing.

the fact that they were not sure exactly what the target was, let alone whether it was hostile military forces, before opening fire amounts to criminal negligence and a wanton disregard of necessary caution.

The presence of anything orange on vehicles, in that environment, should have been enough to warn the pilots that friendly forces might be present - the thought must have crossed their mind, as they asked for confirmation from ground that there were none in the area - any reasonable person would by that point have the mental alarm bells ringing and recognised that they needed to go in and get a positive and conclusive target ID before firing.



Edited to add...


Does this verdict now mean that all those injured in the attack, and the family of the deceased, would now be able to sue the US government for damages?
 
4(T) said:
The US simply weren't experienced with working with allies who are so poorly equipped. Most of any blame - if such an accident of war should be dissected by a civilian coroner years after the event - lies with the MoD and CoC for the abysmal lack of air-ground comms and recognition facilities in UK forces. Asking fast foreign jet pilots to ID a dirty orange rag from x thousand feet is no substitute for buying proper IFF equipments of various types - especially given that it was so obvious they'd be needed. This was one incident that ended in tragedy - but there were plenty of others that came close.
That overlooks the two key problems that we had in 2003. You could've crammed half the computing power of silicon valley onto a chasis, it wouldn't have made any difference as the A10 had no way to recieve the data.

Not only that but the flip side is becoming too dependant on electronic IFF. It's often sadly forgotten but we lost a Tonka and two good blokes because of a technical glitch in an IFF system. Technology isn't going to solve CAS blue on blues.

Instead of acting like the three monkeys. Both the MoD and DoD need to put some serious effort into improving training and procedures, (by that I don't just mean filing some paperwork).

That way, in future, the acts of carelessness/cowboyism really can't be just dismissed with "C'est la Guerre."
 

spike7451

RIP
RIP
Heard it on the way home & I'm glad of the result.Anything else & you could scream "Cover-up!"
Matty's widow once again demonstrated the importance of self restraint.For that I am in awe of her.She could easily have blown her top but she did'nt.
RIP Matty.
 

Brew_Time

War Hero
Pull the troops out and let the Yanks get on with it, why the fcuk should we support them if they kill our guys for no reason. W@NKERS.

BT.
 

Trip_Wire

RIP
RIP
There is an intersting thread going on this incident and ruling on an American military board (Site below.) started by a Brit with the screen nym of 'Royal.'

http://www.socnetcentral.com/vb/
 
the_butler said:
Especially if the zils are equipped with those nasty orange rockets the Americans are so afraid of
Considering that the pilots never said anything about strafing or diving onto Zils, I think this is a prime example of just how easy it is to get confused when battle tracking. The Zils were at another location.

NTM
 
From pprune

“This widow is being used for political purposes to underscore an unpopular war waged by an unpopular leader. Her grief is being drawn out for purely political motives”.


I suspect you have not had the privilege of watching and listening to Mrs Hull facing the worlds press after today’s verdict. A privilege. She is clearly not being used. She is erudite, intelligent and very, very impressive. It is the MoD, our Department of Constitutional Affairs and the US Government who have drawn out her suffering – nobody else.

When asked if the MoD had been helpful to her, she replied yes, they’d helped with her hotel and travel. A great put down. The mighty MoD reduced to the level of a hotel booking service. Beautifully delivered and dripping with contempt.


”Combat isn't exactly a safe area to be in. People actually die. Sadly, it occasionally occurs at our own hands - never intentional, often preventable (with 20/20 hindsight), but should never be pursued in a criminal manner.
That's the true disgrace”.


I’d agree only if this tragic event, and others discussed earlier in the thread, had not been foreseen and ignored. Some more so than others but when the exact same thing happens in 1991 and nothing is done about it, then that is negligence and abrogation of Duty of Care. Coroner Walker says “Unlawful killing” but the “true disgrace” is that the people who allowed it to happen continue to prosper, both in MoD and politics. It is they, more than the pilots, who have been unlawful.


I wish Mrs Hull and her family all the best for the future. LCoH Hull would be very proud of her.
 
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