Killed reporter keen about Iraq

#1
The former ITN chief executive also told the court ITN did notify the military about their news teams' travel plans.

"Does the military have to stop engaging the enemy whilst a van load of media trundle across the battlefield!!"

More here
 
#2
Oxford coroner Andrew Walker said: "It seems that there needs to be some way of informing unilateral teams about where troops are going to be."

Firstly It's usually where the shooting is...

Secondly OPsec... you think we've forgotten the World Service reporting the advance on Goose Green? Cnuts!

Dead Journalist are merely natural selection in action anyway.
 
#3
I'm sorry to sound heartless but in my opinion it's his own fault, and the army should not be telling ITN where they are ITN should be telling the army where THEY are. Or even better stay out of the way behind friendly forces.
 
#5
You takes your money, you takes your chances.

Have these people never heard of the Fog of War?

Hundreds of dead soldiers, hardly a murmer... one dead hack and it's the end of the world as far as they're concerned.
 
#6
Fcuk them, they lose a clown who cant stay away from danger, then have the audacity to hint that somehow the British Military are helping cover it up. The sheer self serving belief that they are the most important entity in theatre and should be afforded every whim and want really fcuks me off.

GWOT means thankfully that journos are seen as live targets for the good old peace loving humble terrorist, and long may it continue.
 
#9
Chaps - whilst I agree that the coroner showed a startling lack of common sense/ basic militaryawareness, and the suggestions of a cover-up seem pretty bizarre, there is no need whatsoever to bad-mouth someone (particularly someone from our own country) who has died. When similar disrespect is shown to dead soldiers we rightly protest; just because he was a journalist doesn't make him any less a living, breathing human being, with relatives who could easily be reading your comments. And when we are trying to get the media on our side in order to portray the message we want heard, this kind of posting can only set us back massively.
 
#10
Dilfor I was just pointing out that Terry Lloyd showed a lack of basic common sense by trying to get infront of the British Army during a war. It was obvious it was dangerous and that you may get hurt. I have been saying the same thing for three years so I'm sure have other people I'm sure you will here similar views at the inquest but will they be reported in the media I very much doubt it.
 
#11
Sorry the bloke got killed and all that, but when you play with fire, you sometimes get burned!

Personally I counldn't give a flying fcuk if the jurno got shot up by Brits, Septics (lack of RHG/D in the area perhaps...) or ragheads - he was there for a story, he was there for an 'exclusive' and there for his own personal fame and fortune!
 
#12
h_8204 said:
Dilfor I was just pointing out that Terry Lloyd showed a lack of basic common sense by trying to get infront of the British Army during a war. It was obvious it was dangerous and that you may get hurt. I have been saying the same thing for three years so I'm sure have other people I'm sure you will here similar views at the inquest but will they be reported in the media I very much doubt it.
Don't disagree with that - its the 'the only good journo is a dead journo' approach that I don't feel is appropriate.
 
#13
I'm with Dilfor. Lloyd knew the risks and was a seasoned reporter. To continually put yourself in danger (voluntarily) over a whole lifetime takes guts and those that do are not in the same league as the low-lifes sitting fat and flaccid in Fleet Street.
 
#14
RIP Terry Lloyd, but there is some important stuff here - Muzzleflash is right, I don't thnk there are many hacks around who understand what it is like to get caught in cross fire or ambushed (or accidentally bombed by the Septics).

So they don't know what to expect when it does happen and have no drills or proper training to fall back on. The only option is to fill your trousers with shite and cry to mum.

And there's another problem. In a vehicle patrol a hack is taking the place of a rifleman, presumably compromising patrol safety.

On a foot patrol you're an extra man but with someone tasked to keep an eye on you specifically - again putting the patrol at risk.

On one patrol to gather intelligence from a hidden source, the source refused to cooperate as soon as he saw my camera and tape recorder. Patrol was a total waste of time

Finally there's the issue of fitness. I didn't know that foot patrols varied their speed. I was expecting a slow walk in the Afghan sun. I didn't expect to run and I certainly didn't expect the horrors of a bomb burst.

The Royal Marines Commandos I was with were incredibly fit. I am about as fit as an elderly Duchess. The result? A well disciplined front section and a straggler at the back who had to be watched.

BBC, ITN and freelance hacks are given basic "Hostile Environment" and BATFAT training. The courses last a week and concentrate on landmines, checkpoints, how to avoid abduction - all good stuff, but there ought to be more emphasis on how the British Army works and what a journalists duties are when they are out with a British unit.

Er, that's it
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#15
I remember Lloyd which probably indicates he was a good journo (or a bad one). Regardless I'm sorry for him and his family that he and the other two died, it is a dangerous job.

IIRC they drove past a US recce unit waving, drove up about 200m, realised they were the now the point of the spear, turned around and drove back, Iraqi forces may have then opened up. The eagle eyed yank recce chap then opened up on the car with only the BG surviving.

Hardly a good way to die and annoying as well given that it was US forces lack of professionalism (if I were killed by somebody doing their job badly I'd be a damned site more annoyed than if it was a bad guy getting lucky/trying to kill and succeding).

I think slowly journo's are learning that you really need to treat cleatus from alabama with one o level (and his air guard brother who's had 30 minutes sleep that week) as a hazzard as great as landmines and a lot less like a friendly forces soldier with the ability to remember.

One day soon a journo will notice that whenever US and UK forces meet in competitions that require more than firing on a range that the UK forces wipe the floor with them. Maybe then they'll realise the competetent soldiers they hung around with in NI or SW Bos are a very different quality to the yank numbsculs wearing 4inch thick glasses going 'woooharrr/semper fi' all the time..

rant mode switched to OFF
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#16
Bear in mind this happened during the initial ground combat phase of the War. That LLoyd died is a tragedy. All deaths are. But he was not a embedded reporter - he chose (one assumes with the blessing of ITN) to work as an "independent", presumably in the search for a story that the other channels that were maybe using pooled material, wouldn't have - but in doing so foregoes the protection and "situational awareness" that is gained by being on the inside of the tent.

Tracking our own people is hard enough in a fast fluid battle, if a journo wants to be independent from the system, then that is exactly what he becomes. I can't see that we have any responsibility for trying to second guess where they are at any particular time.

Suggestions of a MOD "Cover Up" are the usual chaff thrown by people who can't accept the reality of either their own actions or that of their loved ones.
 
#17
Awol said:
I'm with Dilfor. Lloyd knew the risks and was a seasoned reporter. To continually put yourself in danger (voluntarily) over a whole lifetime takes guts and those that do are not in the same league as the low-lifes sitting fat and flaccid in Fleet Street.
Agreed, but if you are going to report from the middle of a two way range without telling anyone that you are there, it stands a chance that one side or the other is going to get you.

Some journo's do a decent job and without the decent ones the misinformation that Bliars gov likes to put out would be all the more credible, they have their place in a conflict but they can not expect to be immune from the effects of very fast flying chunks of metal
 

Mr Happy

LE
Moderator
#19
I think this modern LASER guided weapons warfare has confused journo's into thinking that just because we can put hellfires through windows, bombs down chimneys and kill tanks with ATGM's that we can tell in a snap shot the difference between an Baathist with an RPG and a bloke with a TV camera..

Referring to the unsurprising death of the Reuters team at Hotel El Journo in Baghdad at the end of their third Thunder Run...

"didn't they know we were in the journalists hotel?"
"no"
"Everyone knew!"
"we didn't"
"well you should have"
"why"
"so you wouldn't have shot us"
"really? When you were hanging over a balcony with a shoulder mounted black box pointing at us?"
"oh"
 
#20
There are some good journos out there who actually bother to research their stuff - a lot of them unfortunately are working for the specialist press and don't get slots on prime time news. The rare exceptions are people like Frank Gardner (sp?) the BBC Security Correspondent who ended up on the wrong end of an AK, resulting in him seriously wounded and cameraman dead IIRC.

As someone related to a former journo in a very specialised field, who did get sent to the far flung reaches AFTER the shooting stopped, they will try to blag the story that no-one else has because that's the whole challenge for a journo/publication/channel.

The training is v basic, in the old days no-one really killed journo hostages in great numbers, so they were told to put their hands up and wait for the cavalry/ransom to arrive. After all, they were just covering the story, not part of it....(sigh)

In this case, the imbedded news crews were regarded as not being proper journalists by many in the meeja as 'obviously' the nasty military would censor all the really really secret stuff that everyone knew was happening.

So the hacks with (a) balls or (b)no brains went galloping all over the area looking for 'the STORY'. And got on the wrong side of nasty men with guns in some cases. This is why war zones are called war zones. If it had been called a 'bit of name calling and rock chucking zone' they would have been OK!

From what I recall, this guy was a good journo, who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but who did go to somewhere where people would shoot at him of his own free will. All possible sympathy to his family, but this should not be blown out of proportion: he was in a war zone, and got killed. Simple as that. Journalists are not immune!


NB The worst the relative got was a moderate kicking from security at Shanghai Airport I think in the mid 80's. Broke his duty free, the swine.
 

Top