Kerry and WMD. So who really has used WMD in the last 100 years?

#1
I just saw a clip of John Kerry where he made the claim that Chemical weapons have been banned for 100 years and the only people to use them in that time have been Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

Now *gasp* a US Secretary of State can't be telling untruths to whip up world opinion on his side can he now? Or putting a certain deceptive spin on the real gen so as to con people into supporting his story. No, impossible of course.
But maybe he was genuinely and accidentally wrong or mis-briefed by his aides who, after all, being Americans generally have a hazy idea of history and things outside the US. Yes, that must be it.

Yet that statement can be pulled apart can it not?

When have chemical weapons etc. been banned since? Have they really?

Hague convention 1899 and 1907 had a lot of signatories and was merely hollow, also unsigned by the US.
1925 Geneva Protocol unratified by the US till 1975, just after Vietnam and Agent Orange.

Who has used them in the last 100 years apart from Adolph, in the camps but not on the battlefield, and Saddam on Iraqis and Kurds?

WW1 Both Tommies and Fritz used gas.

From Here;
Kerry's incomplete list of 'tyrants' using chem weapons - The Washington Post

"We consulted with Jeffery K. Smart, a military historian who has written extensively on the use of chemical weapons. “There have definitely been chemical weapons used in other instances,” he said.

First, in 1934, Italy’s fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini, invaded Ethiopia and used chemical weapons, such as mustard bombs, despite having signed and ratified the Geneva Accord. Emperor Haile Selassie told the League of Nations that there were “tens of thousands” of victims, including women and children, but the League did nothing and the Ethiopian forces were routed. (The Italians claims the use of chemical weapons was justified because of an exception in the treaty that allowed for reprisal against illegal acts of war.)

Then, in 1937, Imperial Japan invaded China and used chemical weapons, including mustard agent by 1939. (The toll from the chemical weapon use is unknown, but an estimated 300,000 people, including civilians, died during the Sino-Japanese conflict.)

Finally, during the Yemen civil war between 1963 and 1967, Egyptian President Gama Abdul Nasser ordered the use of chemical weapons against royalist forces -- villagers supporting them. Egypt repeatedly denied using such weapons, but the International Red Cross declared they had been used after forensic examination. Egypt also had signed the Geneva Accord and the United States, preoccupied with the Vietnam war, made little protest.

We should also note that while the United States apparently has not used chemical weapons, it had an extensive chemical weapons program and did not ratify the Geneva Protocol until 1975. President Franklin Roosevelt established a policy of “no first use,” but in 1943 an American ship secretly loaded with mustard agent bombs was destroyed during a German air raid in Italy, resulting in more than 600 casualties and nearly 100 deaths. The civilian toll is unknown.

Update: A reader shared a link to a declassified CIA study showing that the Soviet Union likely used lethal chemical weapons in Southeast Asia and in Afghanistan in the 1970s, possibly killing thousands."


Then we aren't counting Agent Orange in Vietnam and further WMD in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I also don't recall that whilst awaiting Ivan in the long gone days of the Cold War that mere protests and signatures on documents would have stopped either side from the use of NBC Warfare, although in the case of B&C Nato did decline First Use while retaining the capability and expecting to use it. Ivan would have had no scruples whatsoever, as many hours stuffed into noddy suits can testify.

OK so have I missed any other incidents that Arrsers know of?
 
#3
The Japanese used a variety of chemical weapons including chlorine gas and mustards to suppress indigenous revolts during their rule over Taiwan. I think the figure given for casualties on the Chinese mainland are somewhat low, too - they were regularly gassing any large body of Chinese during the battle for Shanghai and on the subsequent advance to Nanjing.

I may be wrong on this one but didn't the Germans also used CWs against local Namibian tribes, too?
 
#5
The Japanese used a variety of chemical weapons including chlorine gas and mustards to suppress indigenous revolts during their rule over Taiwan. I think the figure given for casualties on the Chinese mainland are somewhat low, too - they were regularly gassing any large body of Chinese during the battle for Shanghai and on the subsequent advance to Nanjing.

I may be wrong on this one but didn't the Germans also used CWs against local Namibian tribes, too?
Interesting the Japanese wide usage that really is unknown in the wider world. Couldn't be because they are now an ally, could it? Or was it just because it was in an obscure (to us) conflict and horrible things happened there as a matter of course. Had they used it against us or the Yanks then perhaps there would have been an outcry and it would have been shouted out. Seems that when a peasant people have no voice then it doesn't matter much what happens to them.
 
#6
The US intended to use CW agents during the invasion of Japan and stockpiled many tens of thousands of tonnes of CW agents in preparation. US planning documents casually spoke of killing 5 million civilians in the first wave of attacks on Japanese cities.
 
#7
Do Firestorms count? Certainly caused major damage and casualties and very nasty to be caught in one.

The Tokyo Fire Raids, 1945
 
#9
Them Democrats are really spoiling for a fight aren't they. I thought the Republicans were the hawk party
As a citizen of the USA, in my opinion, its a Wag the Dog, to take the spotlight off the scandals going on here (IRS, Bengazi, etc). Personally, I've always been hawkish, but this is nonsense. I've fed up with both parties.

Judy
 
#10
WW1, presumably the French also used them, not sure if the US did after their entry into the war. Not forgetting that the BEF included formations from several armies, most if not all using 4.5 in How, which was the most widely used means of delivering CW in the BEF. Not sure if there was any use on other fronts such as Italy or Salonica, or by Russia.

There is at least one documented use of CW used by the Japanese in Burma, against an Indian Army tank, by a suicide grenadier.
 
#12
Re. Mussolini and Ethiopia, the League of Nations had an unwritten clause that read 'except for darkies'. That's not a flippant remark, it goes along with Woodrow Wilson and his 'national self-determination' having Ho Chi Minh chucked out of the Versailles Conference on the grounds that he only meant it to apply to white people, and Truman again stabbing Ho in the back after WWII when he cheerfully handed Vietnam (allies against the Japanese during the War) back to the French on the grounds that the French were a bit stroppy and he wanted them to be his chums.

All these fine statements only applied to 'people like us'.
 
#15
I just saw a clip of John Kerry where he made the claim that Chemical weapons have been banned for 100 years and the only people to use them in that time have been Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

Now *gasp* a US Secretary of State can't be telling untruths to whip up world opinion on his side can he now? Or putting a certain deceptive spin on the real gen so as to con people into supporting his story. No, impossible of course.
But maybe he was genuinely and accidentally wrong or mis-briefed by his aides who, after all, being Americans generally have a hazy idea of history and things outside the US. Yes, that must be it.

Yet that statement can be pulled apart can it not?

When have chemical weapons etc. been banned since? Have they really?

Hague convention 1899 and 1907 had a lot of signatories and was merely hollow, also unsigned by the US.
1925 Geneva Protocol unratified by the US till 1975, just after Vietnam and Agent Orange.

Who has used them in the last 100 years apart from Adolph, in the camps but not on the battlefield, and Saddam on Iraqis and Kurds?

WW1 Both Tommies and Fritz used gas.

From Here;
Kerry's incomplete list of 'tyrants' using chem weapons - The Washington Post

"We consulted with Jeffery K. Smart, a military historian who has written extensively on the use of chemical weapons. “There have definitely been chemical weapons used in other instances,” he said.

First, in 1934, Italy’s fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini, invaded Ethiopia and used chemical weapons, such as mustard bombs, despite having signed and ratified the Geneva Accord. Emperor Haile Selassie told the League of Nations that there were “tens of thousands” of victims, including women and children, but the League did nothing and the Ethiopian forces were routed. (The Italians claims the use of chemical weapons was justified because of an exception in the treaty that allowed for reprisal against illegal acts of war.)

Then, in 1937, Imperial Japan invaded China and used chemical weapons, including mustard agent by 1939. (The toll from the chemical weapon use is unknown, but an estimated 300,000 people, including civilians, died during the Sino-Japanese conflict.)

Finally, during the Yemen civil war between 1963 and 1967, Egyptian President Gama Abdul Nasser ordered the use of chemical weapons against royalist forces -- villagers supporting them. Egypt repeatedly denied using such weapons, but the International Red Cross declared they had been used after forensic examination. Egypt also had signed the Geneva Accord and the United States, preoccupied with the Vietnam war, made little protest.

We should also note that while the United States apparently has not used chemical weapons, it had an extensive chemical weapons program and did not ratify the Geneva Protocol until 1975. President Franklin Roosevelt established a policy of “no first use,” but in 1943 an American ship secretly loaded with mustard agent bombs was destroyed during a German air raid in Italy, resulting in more than 600 casualties and nearly 100 deaths. The civilian toll is unknown.

Update: A reader shared a link to a declassified CIA study showing that the Soviet Union likely used lethal chemical weapons in Southeast Asia and in Afghanistan in the 1970s, possibly killing thousands."


Then we aren't counting Agent Orange in Vietnam and further WMD in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I also don't recall that whilst awaiting Ivan in the long gone days of the Cold War that mere protests and signatures on documents would have stopped either side from the use of NBC Warfare, although in the case of B&C Nato did decline First Use while retaining the capability and expecting to use it. Ivan would have had no scruples whatsoever, as many hours stuffed into noddy suits can testify.

OK so have I missed any other incidents that Arrsers know of?

Have you not noticed that the truth is not something that matters to the yanks?
 
#17
As a citizen of the USA, in my opinion, its a Wag the Dog, to take the spotlight off the scandals going on here (IRS, Bengazi, etc). Personally, I've always been hawkish, but this is nonsense. I've fed up with both parties.

Judy
I have thought this have have a staunchly republican friend in up state NY who is also against action and says a lot of his (ex mil) buddies are also.

Kirchner in Argentina is well versed in playing the Malvinas card to take the domestic populations eye of the internal problems and the rampant inflation.

We are not seeing to much this side of the pond regarding Benghazi, could it really be the issue to undermine Obama internally?
 
#18
As I get older and my Army days recede into the distance behind me, I have started to adopt a much more cynical, realistic view of all this political willy waving, particularly the American version. Call me simplistic if you will, but to my mind, there is no such thing as a "red line" when talking about modern weapons of destruction. So, let me get this right - the "civilised" world's response to a regime using primitive Chemical or Biological weapons is to send down a rain of fire of sophisticated cruise missiles which will blow to smithereens anyone or anything unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end, including women and children (collateral damage I believe they call it).
Fcuk you, Mr and Mrs Politician, not in my name - can we please leave the collective shit holes of this world to sort out their own issues and refrain from adopting the moral high ground?
Nothing to do with keeping the multi-billion dollar Arms Industry going by any chance?
 
#19
I just saw a clip of John Kerry where he made the claim that Chemical weapons have been banned for 100 years and the only people to use them in that time have been Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein.

Now *gasp* a US Secretary of State can't be telling untruths to whip up world opinion on his side can he now? Or putting a certain deceptive spin on the real gen so as to con people into supporting his story. No, impossible of course.
But maybe he was genuinely and accidentally wrong or mis-briefed by his aides who, after all, being Americans generally have a hazy idea of history and things outside the US. Yes, that must be it.

Yet that statement can be pulled apart can it not?

When have chemical weapons etc. been banned since? Have they really?

Hague convention 1899 and 1907 had a lot of signatories and was merely hollow, also unsigned by the US.
1925 Geneva Protocol unratified by the US till 1975, just after Vietnam and Agent Orange.

Who has used them in the last 100 years apart from Adolph, in the camps but not on the battlefield, and Saddam on Iraqis and Kurds?

WW1 Both Tommies and Fritz used gas.

From Here;
Kerry's incomplete list of 'tyrants' using chem weapons - The Washington Post

"We consulted with Jeffery K. Smart, a military historian who has written extensively on the use of chemical weapons. “There have definitely been chemical weapons used in other instances,” he said.

First, in 1934, Italy’s fascist dictator, Benito Mussolini, invaded Ethiopia and used chemical weapons, such as mustard bombs, despite having signed and ratified the Geneva Accord. Emperor Haile Selassie told the League of Nations that there were “tens of thousands” of victims, including women and children, but the League did nothing and the Ethiopian forces were routed. (The Italians claims the use of chemical weapons was justified because of an exception in the treaty that allowed for reprisal against illegal acts of war.)

Then, in 1937, Imperial Japan invaded China and used chemical weapons, including mustard agent by 1939. (The toll from the chemical weapon use is unknown, but an estimated 300,000 people, including civilians, died during the Sino-Japanese conflict.)

Finally, during the Yemen civil war between 1963 and 1967, Egyptian President Gama Abdul Nasser ordered the use of chemical weapons against royalist forces -- villagers supporting them. Egypt repeatedly denied using such weapons, but the International Red Cross declared they had been used after forensic examination. Egypt also had signed the Geneva Accord and the United States, preoccupied with the Vietnam war, made little protest.

We should also note that while the United States apparently has not used chemical weapons, it had an extensive chemical weapons program and did not ratify the Geneva Protocol until 1975. President Franklin Roosevelt established a policy of “no first use,” but in 1943 an American ship secretly loaded with mustard agent bombs was destroyed during a German air raid in Italy, resulting in more than 600 casualties and nearly 100 deaths. The civilian toll is unknown.

Update: A reader shared a link to a declassified CIA study showing that the Soviet Union likely used lethal chemical weapons in Southeast Asia and in Afghanistan in the 1970s, possibly killing thousands."


Then we aren't counting Agent Orange in Vietnam and further WMD in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I also don't recall that whilst awaiting Ivan in the long gone days of the Cold War that mere protests and signatures on documents would have stopped either side from the use of NBC Warfare, although in the case of B&C Nato did decline First Use while retaining the capability and expecting to use it. Ivan would have had no scruples whatsoever, as many hours stuffed into noddy suits can testify.

OK so have I missed any other incidents that Arrsers know of?
Did the US help supply Saddam with the nerve agents he used against the Kurds?
 

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