KEEP IT TEENAGE

#1
Im new to this forum so il say hello...HELLO..

Right Cadets aged 12????
whats it all about??
is it a ploy by the ACFA to say we got more Cadets?
From experience i know that some 12 year olds hold their own and are quite clued up but the majority ive found are not.
Not only are they imature in mind but also when really small have difficulty in some training.
Joining the cadets at 13 used to be quite grown up.. but with the enforced age reduction has caused the outlook and standards to slip.
The other day i was training some Basic lads and lasses and their was 2 girls about 3ft 5 and the build of a pencil! now im the first to overcome problems and fight through but some things just cant be....How for instance are these 2 girls ment to hold a No8 rifle or put a bergen on their back and tab?
Because some hapless DC has let them into the system without useing their loaf and saying come back in a year has ment we Instructors have more to worry about..........put ACF entry back to 13....whoes with me?
 

maninblack

LE
Book Reviewer
#2
I hate to admit this but you have posted something based on a kernel of common sense.

The 12 year limit has caused a rainstorm of shite to fall on detachments due to the major maturity between 12 and 3 year olds.

The concept of 15 year old 4 star cadets is looming.....with all the increased maturity issues.......they can't even carry webbing at 12 due to physical development.
 
#3
Remember what cadets are really about and that is simply giving kids an insight in to the army. Any military skills they need to know they will learn in basic training. Being an over confident ex cadet can be a hindrance in training.

No one expects 12 year old kids to pass a Brecon 2 miler

Dave
 
#4
When I joined the ACF, there was the inevitable feeling of grown-up-ness and it became "one of those things" that, as I was now 13, I could do.

However, the night I joined, two lads came down (mates of one of the existing cadets) and said they were 12 but wanted to join. The AI asked when they'd be 13, and they said something like "10 months"... and they were allowed in! Quite a blow to the ego of this previously-"grown-up"-feeling 13-year-old, I can tell you :cry: :wink:

I understand that at the time this enforced-age-reduction wasn't in effect, so where would this stand in terms of... legality?
 
#5
i totally agree, another problem as well is wasted time in training them, in my experience the highest turnover rate of cadets has always been the 12 yo recruits and 1 star group, resulting in admin nightmare in getting the uniform back if the have been issued one by then, i much prefer 13 as it means training time is better invested, uniform is easier as most of them have gone through their initial growth spurt and then grow gradually after that, many 12 to haven't grown out of their primary school metality as it could have been 6 months since they went into secondary education.
 
#6
Remember what cadets are really about and that is simply giving kids an insight in to the army.

Sorry mate but i disagree.....The ACF is based on a progressive training system not a look at life build a go-cart and decorate it with glitter................
at 12 you should belooking forward to next year when you can start training.....not sobbing your heart out at camp cos you miss yer mum and or pop-tarts!
 
#7
robber25 said:
Right Cadets aged 12????
whats it all about??

The correct interpretation is year 8, the school year they become 13...

E.g. two mates same class for year one, one birthday is Jan the other May. Old way one can join in Jan the other has to wait until May, same same year, same class at school.

New way, both can join in September, the year they enter year 8. They will have been in the ACF for 10 months before camp comes round and both will be 13...

Like everything is down to how the rule is applied and more importantly, monitored...

They should also change the leaving age to, last camp as 17 year old.
 
#8
robber25 said:
Im new to this forum so il say hello...HELLO..

Right Cadets aged 12????
whats it all about??

From experience i know that some 12 year olds hold their own and are quite clued up but the majority ive found are not.
I agree with you, by and large the idea is bo****ks. Most of the 12 and some of the 13 year olds are no way prepared for the culture shock. They should stick to scouts and guides until they are mature enough to undertake a two week absence from home without blubbing.
 
#9
robber25 said:
Remember what cadets are really about and that is simply giving kids an insight in to the army.

Sorry mate but i disagree.....The ACF is based on a progressive training system not a look at life build a go-cart and decorate it with glitter................
at 12 you should belooking forward to next year when you can start training.....not sobbing your heart out at camp cos you miss yer mum and or pop-tarts!
I agree with you that it is progressive training and not just a look at life but that is the whole point behind Cadets is to give people an idea what the army might be like in order to recruit more soldiers and Keep the Army firmly in the public eye. This is particularly important at the pre school leaver level because we get a lot of soldiers from this group.

The cadets will learn basic skills but as I said any one joining the army will be retrained (correctly for the army) whether they need it or not

Dave
 
#10
What age do the Sea and Air Cadets take recruits in? Might it have a little bit to do with the ACF loosing Cadets that join the other Cadet services? I agree in the "Old Days" when we took Cadets on at 13, but most Dets had some at 12.5 waiting to get to 13, the system worked very well.

I left the ACF last year, After 5 years as a Cadet, then 5 years regular service, and a further 10 years as a Adult Instructor I felt that it was time to move on.

Cadets gave me a good insite into the Army, and made me want to join up when I left School, I felt it gave me a little better chance of passing basic training, and at times it did help. But Cadets have changed, and the people within the system need to change with it.
 
#11
Well ive been an Instructor a long time and im off to annual next week ,and i bet there are hords of mini kids with combat jackets the size of tents fresh faced and training on small arms...........keep it teenage....the Army Cadets is a grown up world.....
 
#12
Dwill was spot on with what he said - the age rulings were changed to allow for fairness within the year group, not to boost our numbers with 12 year olds, and they made a lot of sense, so that school friends could join together at the same time.

Cadets have been lying about their ages for years and all parents do is sign the form. There are those that wouldn't check if their son / daughter has put the correct DOB down. If you are concerned about the age of a cadet then checking with the parent what school year they are in is a lot simpler and makes for a fairer system.

Many cadets do not start serious growing until the age of 14 or 15 and some do not grow much at all (i'm still tiny as an instructor and seem to have coped with the pressure!). Therefore size is not a major factor in the debate over 12/13 year old cadet joiners.

What is the question is maturity - cadets learn fastest from their peers and will soon learn their boundaries from those senior cadets above them, and those that the instructors set. This comes down to us Staff to oversee and encourage the correct behaviour. A cadet is not immune to guidance, just because he is 6 months younger than the next.

And yes - there is the added factor that cadets are progressing through the syllabus earlier. However, there are still restrictions on SCIC and other courses in that you have to be 16 to attend them. It is, undoubtedly being addressed by the ACF and I already, make sure there are various activities saved for the Seniors to ensure they stay.

My personal aim as an instructor is to see cadets learn and develop skills that they will use in the future (whatever they go on to do) with fun and safe training. I don't see it as an insight into the army, only that we use army-type activities in our training. If I can keep a Yr 8 pupil out of trouble, motivated and enjoying his/her free time, whether they are 12 or 13, i'll have done my job.

If i've sent anyone to asleep, i apologise - have a habit of going on!
 
#13
The joining age to certainly be returned to 13.

Our Det took in a lot of 12 year olds, I strongly disagree with taking them in at that age due to the lack of maturity, utter lack of physical ability, not being able to find uniforms that even half-way fit them and pretty much not been able to do with them APC wise. Some of these lads would go outside and 'play' during canteen breaks!

I also think taking in females should be at the Det's OCs discretion, but thats mostly because my Det is all male staff and getting female cover for Det w/e's is a pain, along with all the other problems associated with having female cadets.
 
#14
RustyBayonet said:
Some of these lads would go outside and 'play' during canteen breaks!.
They could always sit in the canteen and smoke fags with 'Older' lads

I also think taking in females should be at the Det's OCs discretion, but thats mostly because my Det is all male staff and getting female cover for Det w/e's is a pain, along with all the other problems associated with having female cadets.
LOL stop talking out of your arrse, Its a Youth Organastion And what would happen if the OC was a female? Do females eat any different? do they sh1t out of the middle of there backs? No. Grow up and get real
 
#15
keeping on the keep it teenage theme.

last night i had to dismiss 2 recruits.

why ?

they are 12 yo , no problem in that, however they had a serious attitude and maturity problem, they have been told to stop messing about, they disrespect the NCOs, don't bring pens and paper in, one has actually lost his temper swore at the NCOs and gave the NCOs the finger and storming off leaving the gate open (this is a TA centre) not once but twice.

in spite of my warning and trying to point them in the right direction, getting them to understand the NCOs position and reason behind the MOI, in spite of my 2 warnings, in the end i had to dissmiss them as they were disruptive to the detachment, it wasn't something i wanted to do and i have the patience of a saint, it was the only option.

they looked upset and dissapointed but they knew the rules when they joined up and i couldn't have immature cadet with a 10 yo attitude and a short temper handling weapons.
one of them had a sister in my unit, she had a much better attitude and she is 12, girls seemed more mature at that age than boys.

if anything good were to come out of this , is that by being binned they will realise that there is a limit to what you can get away with and take this lesson with them.

will be waiting for the parents to come down .......joy !:roll:


HQ Land raise the age back up to 13 yo please.
 
#16
I can't believe only now after x amount of years with females in cadets you are considering letting them in your det! Do you carry a club and live in a cave. We had female cadets in my old det in 93 (she was a LCpl so had been there a while) and had no female instructor. It's easy, just don't put your self in a position where you can be accussed of anything untoward, just like any other cadet. I had no problem running a Scout troop by myself with girl scouts so why should you have probs?
 
#17
plant_life said:
I can't believe only now after x amount of years with females in cadets you are considering letting them in your det! Do you carry a club and live in a cave. We had female cadets in my old det in 93 (she was a LCpl so had been there a while) and had no female instructor. It's easy, just don't put your self in a position where you can be accussed of anything untoward, just like any other cadet. I had no problem running a Scout troop by myself with girl scouts so why should you have probs?
sorry i should have clarified, the cadets i booted out were boys, girls have been coming in for years now in my area.

i did say that i have found the girls to be more mature and attentive than boys of the same age who tends to mess about, i usually find that the odd sharp word has some effect, however the ones i booted out were particularly bad and were affecting morale, so i had to show them the door.

i didn't want them near any weapons, if they lost their temper and picked up the nearest .22 and fired it at a cadet that annoyed them ,that doesn't bear thinking about , so they are gone.
 
#18
semper said:
keeping on the keep it teenage theme.

last night i had to dismiss 2 recruits.

why ?

they are 12 yo , no problem in that, ........ one of them had a sister in my unit, she had a much better attitude and she is 12, girls seemed more mature at that age than boys..........HQ Land raise the age back up to 13 yo please.
Didn't want to quote your entire posting, but i've shortened it to relevant points.

As Dwill has already mentioned we shouldn't be taking cadets on as soon as they reach 12 - we take them on for the school year they turn 13. I.e. At this point in the year we shouldn't have any 12 year old as they should have reached 13 by the end of the school summer term. September is the point when you may get an influx of 12 year olds as they will be turning 13 throughout end 2005 - 2006. If you just go on the age of 12 then in theory you could be taking cadets on as soon as they reach their 12th birthday and they would still be in yr 7.

You've already stated that some 12 year olds are not a problem - whether its down to gender or not, it doesn't really matter so how does changing it back to 13 make a difference? Would the 2 cadets you binned really have changed so much in maturity levels between one birthday and the next? I seriously doubt it. Would it have made a difference to whether you kicked them out or not had they been 13? Again I doubt it.

You will always get 'difficult' cadets of any age, thats part of what the organisation is about. And seeing them develop is really rewarding. Changing the age limit again will not alter this at all.
 
#19
Hello Combat_Gnome

when they hit 13 yo, they will be in high school for some time and exposed to older teenagers therefore pick up on some maturity aspect in that time.(Hopefully)

at 12 they may see this as just a game and don't take well to discipline, after all in primary school the enviroment is different and discipline is not as strict, as a consequence there is a high turnover of recruits and time wasted, having to start again with a new batch.

again there are differences, as in all things, some more mature than others, i would rather that they were exposed to senior pupils and secondary school discipline and expected young adult behavior.

I probably am the most patient instructor around and when running a Detachment, i usually tell the newbies what to expect and what i want of them, expected standard of behavior ,what the training program consist of, while empathising the positive aspects of the Cadet movement and what they can gain from it,
Binning is a last resort, i usually give them 2 warnings and a chat on how to improve as well as some advice, . if they failed to heed those warning then i cannot hardly be accused of not giving them a chance.

if you have any better ideas and suggestions i would be interested to hear from you.
 
#20
To keep it on thread I am not going to get involved with debating the best way of dealing with cadets that don't conform straight away to the ACF Way.

My point that I have been trying to make, although maybe I haven't been clear enough is this:

The ACF takes cadets from year 8. This is the school year that they turn 13. The age limit was lowered to 12 year olds (for this year group) so that, in September, little Jimmy, whose 13th Birthday is in January could join at the same time as Bob whose 13th Birthday is in September. They will have been in senior school for the same amount of time and there will be no maturity difference relating to age.

All cadets will then be 13 by the end of the school year and in time for Annual Camp.

The age down to 12 doesn't mean that we take on cadets as soon as they hit their 12th birthday and if detachments are doing this then problems could stem from here.

On a side issue - I wish I could have as much faith in the local Secondary School Discipline and their ability to install expected young adult behaviour as you do. Or, maybe i'm just cynical!
 

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