"Just for the kids"??

#1
Serial No: 57-09 Source: CinC

Date: 13 Oct 09 Released by: PR(A)

IN-YEAR SAVINGS MEASURES

ISSUE
1. The Ministry of Defence has taken a number of savings measures in order to remain within budget in this financial year (Apr 09 to Apr 10). The Army is required to take its share and The Chief of the General Staff (CGS) has proposed savings measures totalling £54 million. The Secretary of State for Defence has accepted those proposals which come into effect immediately.

• Army Cadet Force (ACF) and Combined Cadet Force (CCF): Savings of £4 million will result in most Paid Training Day (PTD) payments to adult instructors ceasing. Expansion of the cadet experience to state schools, such as that trialled in the London Challenge initiative, will be postponed. Some of the more recently formed State School CCFs may require alternative government funding to continue. Only essential adult training at the Cadet Training Centre and at Brigade level will be funded, aimed at qualifying adults to conduct low level training safely. National signals training, shooting and sporting competitions, and music concentrations will only happen if adults volunteer to run them. The national Cadet 150 programme for 2010 will not be significantly affected but some local events will be curtailed. ACF evening detachment training, which is unpaid, will be encouraged.


Will be interesting to see just how many of those who profess to be there "just for the kids" suddenly apply for six months leave of absence............
 
#2
mwl946 said:
Will be interesting to see just how many of those who profess to be there "just for the kids" suddenly apply for six months leave of absence............
So why not abolish pay altogether?

ACF Instructors get paid to defray the costs of their volunteering, and in particular to pay for the basic bits of kit they are not, or ever will be issued.

If all of our instructors were rich, and had no families to support, I suppose this would not make any difference. But many are not in a comfortable financial position, Whilst not paying them would be unlikely to be the sole reason some would quit, not paying them will just add another reason to all the other myriad reasons to stop volunteering for the ACF for many of the others. We will lose some adult staff, but it won't be just about the pay.

The biggest loss will be in T&S, rations and stores. There will be no logistics/transport/fuel available for weekend training, let alone adults to run it, with or without pay.

I don't make more than £2k in a typical year from the ACF. If I wanted/needed a part time job to pay the bills, the ACF wouldn't get a look in at all. The pay is just a nice gesture which ensures I'm not out of pocket for giving up my spare time and taking responsibility for other peoples kids in sometimes challenging circumstances.

Looking at this, I doubt we will be getting paid in April 2010 again either. I have been thinking that perhaps we should just mothball the entire organisation now, and re-open in April? But is that too extreme a reaction?

The fact is the Cadet Forces ACF/ATC have been in this position before when PTDs have exhausted budgets, but we usually get most, if not all of our claims paid at the end of the financial year. This year, we won't. Next year we we probably won't either I fear.

NB: I've only done 6 days this year, and I am owed for 4 of those already. This will probably never be paid.
Yeah, of course I'm in it for the money!£110 before tax this year!
 
#3
I don't know of any instructors in my Sqn who are in it for the money. Most of the pay we do get is spent on kit we dont get issued or on bits and pieces for the detachment.
When our training weekend got sh1t canned because the army had cancelled all none essential vehical moves the instructors asked about hireing a coach off of our own backs and paying from our own pockets.
So I dont think many will take 6 months leave. Any one who is only here for the money has come to the wrong place as you will never get rich here and yes we are in it for the kids, ungrateful little chav barstewards that they are.
 
#4
Haven't they just spent about the same on extra TSA's 'n storemen to make sure the training you now won't be doing is safe?

It might not make much difference to many but in the more deprived areas: where the government, ACFA et al were holding up the ACF as a miracle cure for wayward youth, it will. Providing role models the kids can relate to is important, you won't get people who struggle to make enough to live off giving up their valuable time for free if they'd be better off flipping burgers or hoovering offices for a couple of extra hours a week. You also don't have to be particularly cash strapped to appreciate the benefit of a bit of pay in smoothing over the aggravation the demands of the ACF can put on your family life.

It will be a much poorer organisation when it's solely staffed by police officers, teachers and other "career professionals" looking to add an attractive annex to their CV's.


...and who honestly spends £1-2k a year on cadet kit? That smacks of delusion - either in your kit buying activities or the extent of your AI's Mess "socialising"
 
#5
WO2.Ghandi said:
It will be a much poorer organisation when it's solely staffed by police officers, teachers and other "career professionals" looking to add an attractive annex to their CV's.
Ghandi -
Is what the staff do for a primary job an issue to you Ghandi ? I would have thought that being a WO2 you are happy to have anyone that puts in the effort, turns up each night and on time and does it for the kids? Is that not the case?


In regard to being paid, its not just the cadet forces that are in the firing line, many TA staff have also been affected. Point to note though everyone working in green kit has been effected, but the ATC and Sea cadets have not at this time lost their entitlement to PTD's. Only ACF and CCF (army) have been written off at this stage.
Only this morning I had to point out to a friend of mine who is a Maj in the ACF the situation on there being no money for reserves / cadet instructors, he was unaware.
Correct me if I am wrong ACF staff, but do most of you not do over your allocation of PTD's in a year anyway? what is it 21? and with a two week camp and any other courses / weekends I cant see that lasting long.
 
#6
WO2.Ghandi said:
It will be a much poorer organisation when it's solely staffed by police officers, teachers and other "career professionals" looking to add an attractive annex to their CV's.
Quite. I've always wondered why we have so many Police Officers in the ACF and ATC, and how it always seems that they get commissioned on the strength of it too.

...and who honestly spends £1-2k a year on cadet kit? That smacks of delusion - either in your kit buying activities or the extent of your AI's Mess "socialising"
In your first year that's not unheard of, but replacing and maintaining kit in subsequent years can be a significant cost too.
 
#7
ATC Civillian Instructors don't get paid at all (apart from repaying petrol costs), even for week-long camps: frankly it's always seemed somewhat odd to me that uniformed staff get money for doing exactly the same things as CIs. My Wing is absolutely swimming in unpaid CIs, so it seems quite possible that a lack of pay won't make a difference.
 
#8
Why not put our growing army of peadophiles to good use and conscript them into the cadets. They wouldn't need paying and you'd know where they were every drill night. Sarahs Law through the back door. So to speak...
 
#9
W W,

I was making an example in extremis. Of course there are coppers who are dedicated cadeters, I had one as a DC for many years (he was a DC at work too).

The point is, it's no less factual than saying all instructors aren't bothered about getting paid, yet that seems to be readily accepted by the decision makers because it's something proudly stated by the ACF's own hierarchy, when they really ought to be just talking for themselves.

Even if I'm an incurable cynic & all the professional types are purely in it for the kids, their careers may well take them away from the ACF anyway and the ACF is richer for its diversity, particularly having staff that speak with the same accent, went to the same schools, and have had similar experiences as the kids in their charge.

Extra curricular or "added value" activities are hot topic in the education system at the moment. In comparison the ACF (more so the Scouts 'n other volunteer groups) are outstanding value for money. Perhaps it's time the decisions makers 'n bean counters took a wider view. The ACF could have more to gain than alternative funding.
 
#10
Just out of interest, how will the cutbacks (probably the wrong word) affect the "recruiting" of AIs? More than once on ARRSE we have seen AIs defending their counties/regions, but also expressing the fact that the ACF in some regios are desperate for AIs?
Just me being curious for the sake of being curious.
 
#11
the info that we have had come down the chain so far (sparse as it it) states that PTD's are no longer until at least April.

only those courses that provide basically qualified instructors (ie the ITC) and a limited number of courses at Frimley.

coach funding has been withdrawn and things are basically being done at a minimum
 
#12
I would willingly sell all my worldly possessions and pimp my wife out to continue cadettting......it's only money after all.Who needs that? I wonder if MP's expenses will be cut?................. or the amount of staff at county headquarters?
 
#13
scuba_frog said:
Why not put our growing army of peadophiles to good use and conscript them into the cadets. They wouldn't need paying and you'd know where they were every drill night. Sarahs Law through the back door. So to speak...
You are just a prick, aren't you..............
 
#14
When I was an AI, my pay went on beer, none of the myriad jobs I had before the Army paid any more than 10000k a year. I had to use public transport to get to my Det (Lugging a bulging satchel full of Det paperwork and daysack for my boots and kit) and I certainly never spent 2k on kit! Why on earth would an AI need to spend that amount on kit unless they feel the need to big-time it in their SAS windproofs, lowas and Arktis assualt vest? My ACF activities were perfectly covered for by my megre paying jobs.

The kit I was issued and the exercise stuff in the stores was perfectly adequate for the activities we were required to undertake, when you've had to deploy on a weeks exercise with your whole 1157 stuffed into little more than a combat handbag and skeleton webbing you'll understand what I mean.

What Im saying is the money or its absence made absolutly no difference to my commitment to the ACF. Most other youth organisations are unpaid, why is this such a problem?
 
#15
scoobydont said:
When our training weekend got sh1t canned because the army had cancelled all none essential vehical moves.
Suck it up sweetcheeks you're a Youth Organisation not a deployable asset. I cant remember using any "Army" transport in my entire 8 years in the organisation anyway. Oh and its not going to be the "Army" who cancels your weekends is it?!
 
#16
When i applied to be an AI, i didn't know you got paid. I knew about the travelling expenses but that was it. It came as a pleasant surprise that you got money. To be honest, i won't miss it. It only made a real difference on annual when it would cover my mess bill and pay for some other such nonsense that i didn't need. Until recently (due to work commitments) i've always done way over the training days and the thought of extra money for this never entered my head. So we may well lose money? Big fcuking deal. I would be more worried if they cut down on the amount of parade nights to be honest. Mind you, it may be a good thing. We will soon find out those who are really committed. Think of the cadets FFS, it's why you do what you do.
 
#17
blackrat_scaleyback said:
When i applied to be an AI, i didn't know you got paid. I knew about the travelling expenses but that was it. It came as a pleasant surprise that you got money. To be honest, i won't miss it. It only made a real difference on annual when it would cover my mess bill and pay for some other such nonsense that i didn't need. Until recently (due to work commitments) i've always done way over the training days and the thought of extra money for this never entered my head. So we may well lose money? Big fcuking deal. I would be more worried if they cut down on the amount of parade nights to be honest. Mind you, it may be a good thing. We will soon find out those who are really committed. Think of the cadets FFS, it's why you do what you do.
Take your commitment to OC Domestic Ops or the bank and see what its worth then! If you make the staff in the ACF poorer, you make the ACF poorer in terms of opportunities and goodwill offered. The country stands to lose a lot more than it will save.

We signed contracts. Are you suggesting thats it's okay for the government to take further advantage of good will and tear up our contract? Where will that end? Perhaps they should look at not paying regular soldiers unless they are on ops, or why pay them on ops either? There's nowhere to spend the money in Helmand? After all, they didn't sign on for the money, did they?

Most people in this country are living just within their means. Most have nothing left at the end of the month. How many will let themselves be further out of pocket for a thank you?

And then there is the high adult to cadet ratio required to run many activities for H&S reasons? A lot of challenging, exciting and fun training will not happen as less staff will attend the activity and less still will train for it. The bit in the notice about H&S training being ringfenced can be taken two ways. Eg: If there is no ball ammo, or logistics available to take cadets to the range, there is no need to train RCOs and ARDs, is there?

No, it won't be the only reason staff quit, it will just be another reason that will tip the balance in favour of quitting. For the first time in years we were getting close to fully staffed and now this happens. I think we will lose committed and skiled individuals because of this, never mind those,(if there are any) in it for the money.

Already I hear many of the AIs who are employed in civil and public services state they will only attend if they get the special leave (which is at management discretion in most CS jobs now) or the activity falls on a rest day. This will have a massive effect on the activities and training cadets will receive.

Our Easter camp has now been cancelled, so that means running a recruit cadre at annual for cadets who may have had 18-24 months service! How many more staff will we need for annual to do that, and will we still have them?

The long term implications of these cuts will be felt long after April 2010, if funding is restored. And that's an 'if' too, isn't it?

I do think of the cadets, but you have to think of yourselves first. And the implications of these cuts are dull training and an ever larger workload as staff drift away and no fun. I enjoy this and do it for the FUN, and because it satisfies me after a dull week at work. I do my best to make sure cadets have fun and learn something too, because that satisfies me also. I'm not in this for sainthood or martyrdom.

If we never get paid again, what kind of people will remain in the organisation? The selfless martyrs and the little Hitlers and bullies. The selfless martyrs won't be selfless forever, and the little Hitlers and bullies will probably drive them out.
 
#19
walt_of_the_walts said:
If we never get paid again, what kind of people will remain in the organisation? The selfless martyrs and the little Hitlers and bullies. The selfless martyrs won't be selfless forever, and the little Hitlers and bullies will probably drive them out.
By that argument, the entire Scout and Guide movements, church youth clubs etc etc are staffed by martyrs or bullies - joking aside, that doesn't seem a plausible view. Why should uniformed cadet instructors get paid when virtually no other youth leaders do?
 
#20
_Artemis_ said:
walt_of_the_walts said:
If we never get paid again, what kind of people will remain in the organisation? The selfless martyrs and the little Hitlers and bullies. The selfless martyrs won't be selfless forever, and the little Hitlers and bullies will probably drive them out.
By that argument, the entire Scout and Guide movements, church youth clubs etc etc are staffed by martyrs or bullies - joking aside, that doesn't seem a plausible view. Why should uniformed cadet instructors get paid when virtually no other youth leaders do?
Brecause no other youth organisation does, or offers what we do.
 

Similar threads

Latest Threads

Top