"Just for the kids"??

Discussion in 'ACF' started by mwl946, Oct 15, 2009.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. mwl946

    mwl946 LE Good Egg (charities)

    Serial No: 57-09 Source: CinC

    Date: 13 Oct 09 Released by: PR(A)


    1. The Ministry of Defence has taken a number of savings measures in order to remain within budget in this financial year (Apr 09 to Apr 10). The Army is required to take its share and The Chief of the General Staff (CGS) has proposed savings measures totalling £54 million. The Secretary of State for Defence has accepted those proposals which come into effect immediately.

    • Army Cadet Force (ACF) and Combined Cadet Force (CCF): Savings of £4 million will result in most Paid Training Day (PTD) payments to adult instructors ceasing. Expansion of the cadet experience to state schools, such as that trialled in the London Challenge initiative, will be postponed. Some of the more recently formed State School CCFs may require alternative government funding to continue. Only essential adult training at the Cadet Training Centre and at Brigade level will be funded, aimed at qualifying adults to conduct low level training safely. National signals training, shooting and sporting competitions, and music concentrations will only happen if adults volunteer to run them. The national Cadet 150 programme for 2010 will not be significantly affected but some local events will be curtailed. ACF evening detachment training, which is unpaid, will be encouraged.

    Will be interesting to see just how many of those who profess to be there "just for the kids" suddenly apply for six months leave of absence............
  2. So why not abolish pay altogether?

    ACF Instructors get paid to defray the costs of their volunteering, and in particular to pay for the basic bits of kit they are not, or ever will be issued.

    If all of our instructors were rich, and had no families to support, I suppose this would not make any difference. But many are not in a comfortable financial position, Whilst not paying them would be unlikely to be the sole reason some would quit, not paying them will just add another reason to all the other myriad reasons to stop volunteering for the ACF for many of the others. We will lose some adult staff, but it won't be just about the pay.

    The biggest loss will be in T&S, rations and stores. There will be no logistics/transport/fuel available for weekend training, let alone adults to run it, with or without pay.

    I don't make more than £2k in a typical year from the ACF. If I wanted/needed a part time job to pay the bills, the ACF wouldn't get a look in at all. The pay is just a nice gesture which ensures I'm not out of pocket for giving up my spare time and taking responsibility for other peoples kids in sometimes challenging circumstances.

    Looking at this, I doubt we will be getting paid in April 2010 again either. I have been thinking that perhaps we should just mothball the entire organisation now, and re-open in April? But is that too extreme a reaction?

    The fact is the Cadet Forces ACF/ATC have been in this position before when PTDs have exhausted budgets, but we usually get most, if not all of our claims paid at the end of the financial year. This year, we won't. Next year we we probably won't either I fear.

    NB: I've only done 6 days this year, and I am owed for 4 of those already. This will probably never be paid.
    Yeah, of course I'm in it for the money!£110 before tax this year!
  3. I don't know of any instructors in my Sqn who are in it for the money. Most of the pay we do get is spent on kit we dont get issued or on bits and pieces for the detachment.
    When our training weekend got sh1t canned because the army had cancelled all none essential vehical moves the instructors asked about hireing a coach off of our own backs and paying from our own pockets.
    So I dont think many will take 6 months leave. Any one who is only here for the money has come to the wrong place as you will never get rich here and yes we are in it for the kids, ungrateful little chav barstewards that they are.
  4. Haven't they just spent about the same on extra TSA's 'n storemen to make sure the training you now won't be doing is safe?

    It might not make much difference to many but in the more deprived areas: where the government, ACFA et al were holding up the ACF as a miracle cure for wayward youth, it will. Providing role models the kids can relate to is important, you won't get people who struggle to make enough to live off giving up their valuable time for free if they'd be better off flipping burgers or hoovering offices for a couple of extra hours a week. You also don't have to be particularly cash strapped to appreciate the benefit of a bit of pay in smoothing over the aggravation the demands of the ACF can put on your family life.

    It will be a much poorer organisation when it's solely staffed by police officers, teachers and other "career professionals" looking to add an attractive annex to their CV's.

    ...and who honestly spends £1-2k a year on cadet kit? That smacks of delusion - either in your kit buying activities or the extent of your AI's Mess "socialising"
  5. Ghandi -
    Is what the staff do for a primary job an issue to you Ghandi ? I would have thought that being a WO2 you are happy to have anyone that puts in the effort, turns up each night and on time and does it for the kids? Is that not the case?

    In regard to being paid, its not just the cadet forces that are in the firing line, many TA staff have also been affected. Point to note though everyone working in green kit has been effected, but the ATC and Sea cadets have not at this time lost their entitlement to PTD's. Only ACF and CCF (army) have been written off at this stage.
    Only this morning I had to point out to a friend of mine who is a Maj in the ACF the situation on there being no money for reserves / cadet instructors, he was unaware.
    Correct me if I am wrong ACF staff, but do most of you not do over your allocation of PTD's in a year anyway? what is it 21? and with a two week camp and any other courses / weekends I cant see that lasting long.
  6. Quite. I've always wondered why we have so many Police Officers in the ACF and ATC, and how it always seems that they get commissioned on the strength of it too.

    In your first year that's not unheard of, but replacing and maintaining kit in subsequent years can be a significant cost too.
  7. ATC Civillian Instructors don't get paid at all (apart from repaying petrol costs), even for week-long camps: frankly it's always seemed somewhat odd to me that uniformed staff get money for doing exactly the same things as CIs. My Wing is absolutely swimming in unpaid CIs, so it seems quite possible that a lack of pay won't make a difference.
  8. Why not put our growing army of peadophiles to good use and conscript them into the cadets. They wouldn't need paying and you'd know where they were every drill night. Sarahs Law through the back door. So to speak...
  9. W W,

    I was making an example in extremis. Of course there are coppers who are dedicated cadeters, I had one as a DC for many years (he was a DC at work too).

    The point is, it's no less factual than saying all instructors aren't bothered about getting paid, yet that seems to be readily accepted by the decision makers because it's something proudly stated by the ACF's own hierarchy, when they really ought to be just talking for themselves.

    Even if I'm an incurable cynic & all the professional types are purely in it for the kids, their careers may well take them away from the ACF anyway and the ACF is richer for its diversity, particularly having staff that speak with the same accent, went to the same schools, and have had similar experiences as the kids in their charge.

    Extra curricular or "added value" activities are hot topic in the education system at the moment. In comparison the ACF (more so the Scouts 'n other volunteer groups) are outstanding value for money. Perhaps it's time the decisions makers 'n bean counters took a wider view. The ACF could have more to gain than alternative funding.
  10. Just out of interest, how will the cutbacks (probably the wrong word) affect the "recruiting" of AIs? More than once on ARRSE we have seen AIs defending their counties/regions, but also expressing the fact that the ACF in some regios are desperate for AIs?
    Just me being curious for the sake of being curious.
  11. the info that we have had come down the chain so far (sparse as it it) states that PTD's are no longer until at least April.

    only those courses that provide basically qualified instructors (ie the ITC) and a limited number of courses at Frimley.

    coach funding has been withdrawn and things are basically being done at a minimum
  12. I would willingly sell all my worldly possessions and pimp my wife out to continue cadettting......it's only money after all.Who needs that? I wonder if MP's expenses will be cut?................. or the amount of staff at county headquarters?
  13. You are just a prick, aren't you..............
  14. When I was an AI, my pay went on beer, none of the myriad jobs I had before the Army paid any more than 10000k a year. I had to use public transport to get to my Det (Lugging a bulging satchel full of Det paperwork and daysack for my boots and kit) and I certainly never spent 2k on kit! Why on earth would an AI need to spend that amount on kit unless they feel the need to big-time it in their SAS windproofs, lowas and Arktis assualt vest? My ACF activities were perfectly covered for by my megre paying jobs.

    The kit I was issued and the exercise stuff in the stores was perfectly adequate for the activities we were required to undertake, when you've had to deploy on a weeks exercise with your whole 1157 stuffed into little more than a combat handbag and skeleton webbing you'll understand what I mean.

    What Im saying is the money or its absence made absolutly no difference to my commitment to the ACF. Most other youth organisations are unpaid, why is this such a problem?
  15. Suck it up sweetcheeks you're a Youth Organisation not a deployable asset. I cant remember using any "Army" transport in my entire 8 years in the organisation anyway. Oh and its not going to be the "Army" who cancels your weekends is it?!