Junior Leaders Regiment (Volunteers)

Discussion in 'Army Reserve' started by chocolate_frog, Mar 12, 2013.

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  1. Bear with me chaps, this idea is embryonic.

    With all this drive to create a bigger TA and, of course, finding time to train a deployable TA chap up with work commitments I have an idea.

    Let's wind the clock back. The ACF claim descendancy to the Cadet Coys and Bns of the TA of days gone by, so the idea has stood before. am NOT for one minute proposing a military role for the ACF/CCF nor changing them, but this has a lot to do with the one time Cadet units of the TA.

    When I joined we had a Regular 'Junior Army' made up of Junior Soldiers, Junior Leaders and Apprentice Tradesmen. They received good quality training, and generally dominated the higher ranks of the NCOs.

    So could a similar a scheme benefit the TA of today?

    Open up a JLR (V) to manage and deliver centralsed training with ATUs having a 'Junior Trainng Wing' and TACs having trained SNCOs to deliver training to the JLs. (ie a PSI/SNCO with CRB and some training in working with under 18s).

    JLs would be recruited from the schools year 11, and inducted and trained during a 4 week training camp in Summer Hols after GCSEs.

    Drill nights would be used to keep them ticking over through the term, with some minor skills, fitness and the like.

    A weekend training session in the ATU during term time and at half term, Christmas and Easter would build on skills.

    With a 3 week (say) camp after AS Level Exams.

    The whole process is repeated for A level year.

    Culminating in a Final Exercise after A Levels. Say a 4 week camp.

    At which point the trained soldier joins his TA unit as a TS.

    With only 1 evening training sess a week it shouldn't be too hard on the school work, ACF often do two nights a week. Not to mentin coy weekends.

    The Lads could be paid in line with pay to current Juniors in the Regs.

    I think thre would be 110 days worth of training in the two years. Based on 8 evenings a term providing 2 hours of training, and grouped in to 8 hour 'days', 10 weekends (1.5 days) (one each term, Easter and Christmas hols) and three summer camps of 26, 19 and 30 days duration.

    Adv Trg could be thrown in (either as part of the course or as extra time) and Junior Ranks, maybe even drivng lessons (as a sweetner) but tie it all up with a return of service.

    In the second year trade training could be delivered, possibly being completed by the test ex, possibly not (depending on trade).

    Would such a scheme work? Deliver the quality lads we need in the TA?

    Could such a scheme work for Uni or similar? Or would the UOTC want to keep 'Officer' training reserved for the Uni?
     
  2. Idea has merit. IIRC a 5 star cadet used to equate to a recruit at the end of phase 1 so why not?
     
  3. My tuppence worth. We have enough problems with maturity levels in 22-23 year olds never mind 15 & 16 year olds.

    Also given that the age of the average TA soldier is a fair bit older than their regular counterparts complete with the responsibilities that brings. Wife,kids,mortgages,CSA shite, uncooperative employers etc an 18 year old joining up on a fast track to JNCO isn't necessarily going to be operating among his peers and probably isn't going to be equipped with the life skills to deal with blokes having dramas with said responsibilities.

    Like I said just my tuppence.




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  4. Is the age of the Vol important? Rank mentioned was 'Junior Rank' upon entering the 'Adult' side the rank would evaporate as per the Junior/Apprentice Rank of yore. AT RSMs became a Siggy after Harrogate... much like a AT who became a.... Siggy after Harrogate.
     
  5. No....

    It did not.
     
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  6. Yes put another level of complexity into a volunteer army thats already stretched recruiting adults.

    Brilliant.
     
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  7. Obvious G7 / G4 issue, but who would staff it?
     
  8. Given that the minimum age for joining the TA has been recently increased to 18 because the system acknowledges that it cannot deal with U-18 TA soldiers, what on Earth makes you think they can do this?!

    Nice idea though. Isn't it called the Army Cadet Force?
     
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  9. An interesting idea..

    I don't think it is a "quick fix" but something perhaps to aim for. IMHO is touches on a number of issues which I think need tackled..

    1. The OTC system at Universities has been too focussed on regular officer recruiting for the past thirty odd years. This has much to do with their background in the "Traditional" universities and the regular element of their staffing. The default setting has been "we would like you to go regular, but if you don't thats fine, however the TA is a bit infra dig if you know what I mean..." This is changing as the "independant" TA commissioning route is now (apparantly) to come through the OTCs. The other thing is that a significant percentage of potential NCOs, partularly in the technical arms and services, now go through University.. we are missing these folk out almost completely.. the question is should we have non officer training streams attracting students at universities to feed the regular and TA NCO streams?

    2. I have, for many years, been suspicious of the culture of the cadet organisations, the ACF in particular. No 2 son had a brief encounter with this lot that left us both seriously concerned. Any realisitic links with military reality that this organisation had seem to have evaporated over the years, and, joking apart, the quality and motivation of the staff do not seem to be all that desired. Far too much organisational incest IMHO.. we need to blow some fresh air into this lot..

    With the changes in the forces being considered, I think there is a unique oppertunity to do some joined up thinking in this vital layer, that would give some much need stability to our forces in the future, and possibly even save some of the horrendous waste in the current arrangements.

    I give you my "started for 10"..

    1. Bring the ACF/CCF clearly into the main chain of command and stop considering them to be "just" a youth organisation. IMHO this line of argument is just an excuse for individuals not to comply with accepted military norms and behaviour and to encourage waltism. I would post in TA instructors on two/three year tours and get rid of this concept of CIs - if they are good enough to instruct they should be good enough to pass recruit selection. I would also suggest that these units should be commanded by full TA officers. This would allow the TA to have a large pool of NCOs available for strategic mobilisation.

    2. I would expand the OTC to include non officer training, and have NCO specialist training companies for medical, engineering etc at section level... change the name to University Training Regiments. This would feed directly into TA and Regular recruitment processes.

    3. I sort of like the idea of ACF App colleges, however if you had a proper grip on the ACF/CCF you could stream the units in a locality and "post" likely folk from one det to another. You could have a better laydown of recruit, intermediate and advanced detachments feeding in to the UTR/regular/TA units..

    The political sh1tstorm would be awsome, but might be worth the candle. That said, the real problem would be to winkle out all the dinosaurs in the ACF/CCF/RFA/MEC mafia that would resist it tooth & nail..
     
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  10. It was the Cadets, this would be distinct. I made that point early on. Cadet Coys and later Bns were set up to recruit young lads, train them and put them in their units when they were old enough. The ACF is a bit different.

    G1/G4, through existing channels (TACs, ATUs, OTCs and RTMC).

    G7 A training wing dedicated to Juniors. A SME in the TA unit (JLPSI) with selected NCOs (Career enhancing post) trained to mentor and assist the Juniors.

    The Training wing (like CTT operations) would visit TACs through the week (not neccesarily weekly) to assist, run weekends, and in summer run the Junior Concentrations.

    If the TA has stopped recruiting U18s due to its inability to integrate them, that doesn't map across to this idea being unworkable. U18s couldn't train alongside regs, that is why we have AFC and ATFC.

    On the subject of which, doesn't Harrogate close down in 'term holidays'? So we have a custom built facility, complete wth ranges and Battle Lesson stands (and other stuff) that is essentialy free for Summer Concentrations.

    Manning shouldn't be an issue. The TA are uspscaling to 30,000 , Junior Training Staff would be part of that figure.
     
  11. It was the Cadets, this would be distinct. I made that point early on. Cadet Coys and later Bns were set up to recruit young lads, train them and put them in their units when they were old enough. The ACF is a bit different.

    G1/G4, through existing channels (TACs, ATUs, OTCs and RTMC).

    G7 A training wing dedicated to Juniors. A SME in the TA unit (JLPSI) with selected NCOs (Career enhancing post) trained to mentor and assist the Juniors.

    The Training wing (like CTT operations) would visit TACs through the week (not neccesarily weekly) to assist, run weekends, and in summer run the Junior Concentrations.

    If the TA has stopped recruiting U18s due to its inability to integrate them, that doesn't map across to this idea being unworkable. U18s couldn't train alongside regs, that is why we have AFC and ATFC.

    On the subject of which, doesn't Harrogate close down in 'term holidays'? So we have a custom built facility, complete wth ranges and Battle Lesson stands (and other stuff) that is essentialy free for Summer Concentrations.

    Manning shouldn't be an issue. The TA are uspscaling to 30,000 , Junior Training Staff would be part of that figure.
     
  12. c_f, I've crossed swords with you in the past, but for once I am not out to roundly abuse you. I like the idea of what you're proposing (I really do!), but I can't see what you're trying to achieve here.

    How? Up until 2004 there was provision in TA Regs for Post 3 Star ACF Cadets/APC CCF Cadets with more than 3 years service to miss all or parts of TA Phase 1 Training.

    If the system wanted children trained up for service, they could simply re-insert this rule, tighten up on oversight of the Cadet Forces and boom, there's everything you've proposed already set up.

    Training for young people is already provided by the Cadet Forces, why would the MOD pay twice over?
     
  13. Like this idea, it's aiming at groups that the army may miss for recruiting (they aren't your normal ORs and neither fall into commissioning groups).



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  14. I've never heard of Cadets mising training, but I don't feel the ACF should be roped in to this. IT should stay distinct as a youth organisation sponsored by the MoD.

    This would be an expanson of the TA in to the Junior Intake area. What we get is a supply of youngsters interested in joining up, with ample free time and a tax free status (thus we can pay them less, but they still get a fair wedge).

    I really can't see how (and I don't agree with it) the ACF could provide training. This is not what they are nor what they should be doing.

    It is literaly a part time ersion of the Army Foundaton College or Army Technical Foundation Collee (the succesrors to the Army Apprentices' Colleges and Junor Leader Regiments/Battalions of up to the early 90's (4 AAColls continued to 96 (RE, RSignals, REME and RLC(ACC))). And hopefully would pull youngsters in to the TA, give lots of training and then bring these trained pax in to the TA, hopefully for a long time.