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Junior Leaders Regiment (Volunteers)

#1
Bear with me chaps, this idea is embryonic.

With all this drive to create a bigger TA and, of course, finding time to train a deployable TA chap up with work commitments I have an idea.

Let's wind the clock back. The ACF claim descendancy to the Cadet Coys and Bns of the TA of days gone by, so the idea has stood before. am NOT for one minute proposing a military role for the ACF/CCF nor changing them, but this has a lot to do with the one time Cadet units of the TA.

When I joined we had a Regular 'Junior Army' made up of Junior Soldiers, Junior Leaders and Apprentice Tradesmen. They received good quality training, and generally dominated the higher ranks of the NCOs.

So could a similar a scheme benefit the TA of today?

Open up a JLR (V) to manage and deliver centralsed training with ATUs having a 'Junior Trainng Wing' and TACs having trained SNCOs to deliver training to the JLs. (ie a PSI/SNCO with CRB and some training in working with under 18s).

JLs would be recruited from the schools year 11, and inducted and trained during a 4 week training camp in Summer Hols after GCSEs.

Drill nights would be used to keep them ticking over through the term, with some minor skills, fitness and the like.

A weekend training session in the ATU during term time and at half term, Christmas and Easter would build on skills.

With a 3 week (say) camp after AS Level Exams.

The whole process is repeated for A level year.

Culminating in a Final Exercise after A Levels. Say a 4 week camp.

At which point the trained soldier joins his TA unit as a TS.

With only 1 evening training sess a week it shouldn't be too hard on the school work, ACF often do two nights a week. Not to mentin coy weekends.

The Lads could be paid in line with pay to current Juniors in the Regs.

I think thre would be 110 days worth of training in the two years. Based on 8 evenings a term providing 2 hours of training, and grouped in to 8 hour 'days', 10 weekends (1.5 days) (one each term, Easter and Christmas hols) and three summer camps of 26, 19 and 30 days duration.

Adv Trg could be thrown in (either as part of the course or as extra time) and Junior Ranks, maybe even drivng lessons (as a sweetner) but tie it all up with a return of service.

In the second year trade training could be delivered, possibly being completed by the test ex, possibly not (depending on trade).

Would such a scheme work? Deliver the quality lads we need in the TA?

Could such a scheme work for Uni or similar? Or would the UOTC want to keep 'Officer' training reserved for the Uni?
 
M

Mitch500

Guest
#3
Idea has merit. IIRC a 5 star cadet used to equate to a recruit at the end of phase 1 so why not?
 
#4
My tuppence worth. We have enough problems with maturity levels in 22-23 year olds never mind 15 & 16 year olds.

Also given that the age of the average TA soldier is a fair bit older than their regular counterparts complete with the responsibilities that brings. Wife,kids,mortgages,CSA shite, uncooperative employers etc an 18 year old joining up on a fast track to JNCO isn't necessarily going to be operating among his peers and probably isn't going to be equipped with the life skills to deal with blokes having dramas with said responsibilities.

Like I said just my tuppence.




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#5
Also given that the age of the average TA soldier is a fair bit older than their regular counterparts complete with the responsibilities that brings. Wife,kids,mortgages,CSA shite, uncooperative employers etc an 18 year old joining up on a fast track to JNCO isn't necessarily going to be operating among his peers and probably isn't going to be equipped with the life skills to deal with blokes having dramas with said responsibilities.
Is the age of the Vol important? Rank mentioned was 'Junior Rank' upon entering the 'Adult' side the rank would evaporate as per the Junior/Apprentice Rank of yore. AT RSMs became a Siggy after Harrogate... much like a AT who became a.... Siggy after Harrogate.
 
#9
Given that the minimum age for joining the TA has been recently increased to 18 because the system acknowledges that it cannot deal with U-18 TA soldiers, what on Earth makes you think they can do this?!

Nice idea though. Isn't it called the Army Cadet Force?
 
#10
An interesting idea..

I don't think it is a "quick fix" but something perhaps to aim for. IMHO is touches on a number of issues which I think need tackled..

1. The OTC system at Universities has been too focussed on regular officer recruiting for the past thirty odd years. This has much to do with their background in the "Traditional" universities and the regular element of their staffing. The default setting has been "we would like you to go regular, but if you don't thats fine, however the TA is a bit infra dig if you know what I mean..." This is changing as the "independant" TA commissioning route is now (apparantly) to come through the OTCs. The other thing is that a significant percentage of potential NCOs, partularly in the technical arms and services, now go through University.. we are missing these folk out almost completely.. the question is should we have non officer training streams attracting students at universities to feed the regular and TA NCO streams?

2. I have, for many years, been suspicious of the culture of the cadet organisations, the ACF in particular. No 2 son had a brief encounter with this lot that left us both seriously concerned. Any realisitic links with military reality that this organisation had seem to have evaporated over the years, and, joking apart, the quality and motivation of the staff do not seem to be all that desired. Far too much organisational incest IMHO.. we need to blow some fresh air into this lot..

With the changes in the forces being considered, I think there is a unique oppertunity to do some joined up thinking in this vital layer, that would give some much need stability to our forces in the future, and possibly even save some of the horrendous waste in the current arrangements.

I give you my "started for 10"..

1. Bring the ACF/CCF clearly into the main chain of command and stop considering them to be "just" a youth organisation. IMHO this line of argument is just an excuse for individuals not to comply with accepted military norms and behaviour and to encourage waltism. I would post in TA instructors on two/three year tours and get rid of this concept of CIs - if they are good enough to instruct they should be good enough to pass recruit selection. I would also suggest that these units should be commanded by full TA officers. This would allow the TA to have a large pool of NCOs available for strategic mobilisation.

2. I would expand the OTC to include non officer training, and have NCO specialist training companies for medical, engineering etc at section level... change the name to University Training Regiments. This would feed directly into TA and Regular recruitment processes.

3. I sort of like the idea of ACF App colleges, however if you had a proper grip on the ACF/CCF you could stream the units in a locality and "post" likely folk from one det to another. You could have a better laydown of recruit, intermediate and advanced detachments feeding in to the UTR/regular/TA units..

The political sh1tstorm would be awsome, but might be worth the candle. That said, the real problem would be to winkle out all the dinosaurs in the ACF/CCF/RFA/MEC mafia that would resist it tooth & nail..
 
#11
It was the Cadets, this would be distinct. I made that point early on. Cadet Coys and later Bns were set up to recruit young lads, train them and put them in their units when they were old enough. The ACF is a bit different.

G1/G4, through existing channels (TACs, ATUs, OTCs and RTMC).

G7 A training wing dedicated to Juniors. A SME in the TA unit (JLPSI) with selected NCOs (Career enhancing post) trained to mentor and assist the Juniors.

The Training wing (like CTT operations) would visit TACs through the week (not neccesarily weekly) to assist, run weekends, and in summer run the Junior Concentrations.

If the TA has stopped recruiting U18s due to its inability to integrate them, that doesn't map across to this idea being unworkable. U18s couldn't train alongside regs, that is why we have AFC and ATFC.

On the subject of which, doesn't Harrogate close down in 'term holidays'? So we have a custom built facility, complete wth ranges and Battle Lesson stands (and other stuff) that is essentialy free for Summer Concentrations.

Manning shouldn't be an issue. The TA are uspscaling to 30,000 , Junior Training Staff would be part of that figure.
 
#12
It was the Cadets, this would be distinct. I made that point early on. Cadet Coys and later Bns were set up to recruit young lads, train them and put them in their units when they were old enough. The ACF is a bit different.

G1/G4, through existing channels (TACs, ATUs, OTCs and RTMC).

G7 A training wing dedicated to Juniors. A SME in the TA unit (JLPSI) with selected NCOs (Career enhancing post) trained to mentor and assist the Juniors.

The Training wing (like CTT operations) would visit TACs through the week (not neccesarily weekly) to assist, run weekends, and in summer run the Junior Concentrations.

If the TA has stopped recruiting U18s due to its inability to integrate them, that doesn't map across to this idea being unworkable. U18s couldn't train alongside regs, that is why we have AFC and ATFC.

On the subject of which, doesn't Harrogate close down in 'term holidays'? So we have a custom built facility, complete wth ranges and Battle Lesson stands (and other stuff) that is essentialy free for Summer Concentrations.

Manning shouldn't be an issue. The TA are uspscaling to 30,000 , Junior Training Staff would be part of that figure.
 
#13
c_f, I've crossed swords with you in the past, but for once I am not out to roundly abuse you. I like the idea of what you're proposing (I really do!), but I can't see what you're trying to achieve here.

It was the Cadets, this would be distinct. I made that point early on. Cadet Coys and later Bns were set up to recruit young lads, train them and put them in their units when they were old enough. The ACF is a bit different.
How? Up until 2004 there was provision in TA Regs for Post 3 Star ACF Cadets/APC CCF Cadets with more than 3 years service to miss all or parts of TA Phase 1 Training.

If the system wanted children trained up for service, they could simply re-insert this rule, tighten up on oversight of the Cadet Forces and boom, there's everything you've proposed already set up.

Training for young people is already provided by the Cadet Forces, why would the MOD pay twice over?
 
#14
An interesting idea..

2. I would expand the OTC to include non officer training, and have NCO specialist training companies for medical, engineering etc at section level... change the name to University Training Regiments. This would feed directly into TA and Regular recruitment processes.
Like this idea, it's aiming at groups that the army may miss for recruiting (they aren't your normal ORs and neither fall into commissioning groups).



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#15
c_f, I've crossed swords with you in the past, but for once I am not out to roundly abuse you. I like the idea of what you're proposing (I really do!), but I can't see what you're trying to achieve here.

I'll take your word for that... I don't tend to remember all my psots.

How? Up until 2004 there was provision in TA Regs for Post 3 Star ACF Cadets/APC CCF Cadets with more than 3 years service to miss all or parts of TA Phase 1 Training.

If the system wanted children trained up for service, they could simply re-insert this rule, tighten up on oversight of the Cadet Forces and boom, there's everything you've proposed already set up.

Training for young people is already provided by the Cadet Forces, why would the MOD pay twice over?
I've never heard of Cadets mising training, but I don't feel the ACF should be roped in to this. IT should stay distinct as a youth organisation sponsored by the MoD.

This would be an expanson of the TA in to the Junior Intake area. What we get is a supply of youngsters interested in joining up, with ample free time and a tax free status (thus we can pay them less, but they still get a fair wedge).

I really can't see how (and I don't agree with it) the ACF could provide training. This is not what they are nor what they should be doing.

It is literaly a part time ersion of the Army Foundaton College or Army Technical Foundation Collee (the succesrors to the Army Apprentices' Colleges and Junor Leader Regiments/Battalions of up to the early 90's (4 AAColls continued to 96 (RE, RSignals, REME and RLC(ACC))). And hopefully would pull youngsters in to the TA, give lots of training and then bring these trained pax in to the TA, hopefully for a long time.
 
#16
1. Bring the ACF/CCF clearly into the main chain of command and stop considering them to be "just" a youth organisation. IMHO this line of argument is just an excuse for individuals not to comply with accepted military norms and behaviour and to encourage waltism. I would post in TA instructors on two/three year tours and get rid of this concept of CIs - if they are good enough to instruct they should be good enough to pass recruit selection. I would also suggest that these units should be commanded by full TA officers. This would allow the TA to have a large pool of NCOs available for strategic mobilisation.
...

3. I sort of like the idea of ACF App colleges, however if you had a proper grip on the ACF/CCF you could stream the units in a locality and "post" likely folk from one det to another. You could have a better laydown of recruit, intermediate and advanced detachments feeding in to the UTR/regular/TA units..

Sorry HE missed your post.
Qite agree re the OTCs moving in to ORs and training them. There is ample time in 3 years (or more) to churn out fully traiined Officers and ORs ready to take their place in the reg or TA.

Not the ACF thing though. The ACF is a Youth Org, and it has many benefits as it stands. Turn it n to a recruiting tool, and we lose that. And Big Society and all that.

ACF/CCf ARE in the CoC, and their Officers ARE in the TA (B Type Commision). They have their own SOs in Brigades and a Branch at Andover.

Like the idea of putting TA n to the Instr side though. Perhaps they could do both? Junior Bleeders and Cadets.

CIs ARE important. They bring in specialist skills to the ACF/CCF such as First Aid (St Johns awards/Red Cross), or maybe Shotgun/Archery, Adv Trg, DofE etc.

PIs are civvies, do they really need to pass recruit selection in order to babysit kids?

The bg problem cropping up would be how do you seperate the two? Juniors and Cdets, they would be two distinct groups.
 
#17
Sorry HE missed your post.
Qite agree re the OTCs moving in to ORs and training them. There is ample time in 3 years (or more) to churn out fully traiined Officers and ORs ready to take their place in the reg or TA.

Not the ACF thing though. The ACF is a Youth Org, and it has many benefits as it stands. Turn it n to a recruiting tool, and we lose that. And Big Society and all that.

ACF/CCf ARE in the CoC, and their Officers ARE in the TA (B Type Commision). They have their own SOs in Brigades and a Branch at Andover.

Like the idea of putting TA n to the Instr side though. Perhaps they could do both? Junior Bleeders and Cadets.

CIs ARE important. They bring in specialist skills to the ACF/CCF such as First Aid (St Johns awards/Red Cross), or maybe Shotgun/Archery, Adv Trg, DofE etc.

PIs are civvies, do they really need to pass recruit selection in order to babysit kids?

The bg problem cropping up would be how do you seperate the two? Juniors and Cdets, they would be two distinct groups.
I'm not suggesting that the ACF become a recruiting orgnaisation, that would be politically unacceptable. There is no reason however for the ACF to be as "independent" as it is by divorcing itself from the rest of the military world when it suits. If you look at where things have gone wrong, often it can be traced to individuals going "off piste" due to lack of local accountablity e.g. arrsing about in rigid raiders with GPMGs and dodgy lifejackets..

What I am saying is that ACF should be answerable to the CoC at a lot lower level than they are now. The link between ACF and the real world (if such a thing exists) is at such a high level that it almost does not exist in practice. I would like the link to lie no higher than Brigade and that instructors are "posted" in for tours from the local TA.

I am highly suspicious of the current position where many ACF staff are ex cadets who, for whatever reason, did not go on to join TA or Regular. I would much prefer it if all cadet instructors had some recent experience of the forces, if only to counter some of the nonsence that comes from the old & bold, some of who still seem to be stuck in the Boer war. I would like to see a ban on ex cadets becoming CIs until they had gained at least Cpl rank in the regular or reserve forces..

With the reformation of the UK force profile, there will be challenges in producing a sensible command structure, particularly in the reserve area. I think, by bringing Cadet units into the equation, a much better overall structure can be achieved for all concerned.
 
#18
There is no reason however for the ACF to be as "independent" as it is by divorcing itself from the rest of the military world when it suits. If you look at where things have gone wrong, often it can be traced to individuals going "off piste" due to lack of local accountablity e.g. arrsing about in rigid raiders with GPMGs and dodgy lifejackets..

Every County/Bn has a FTRS WO2 Training and Safety Adviser. They are directly responsible to the Bde Cdr for G7 safety, but work hand in glove with the SO3 Cadets in the Bde, the CTT and also cover CCF schools in their patch.

Their deployment is varied, some are a 'centralised' team, and are in the Bde, others are with the CTTs and others live in the County HQs. AFAIK any activity currently has to be pushed through them, with ALL paper work and signed off by them.

This was in response to the incident you allude to. They visit dets every 3 or 6 months (one of the two) and attend inspections where records are scrutinised. All activities are posted on Westminster, inc DS, and the quals (JPA stylee) are also posted on Westminster.

ACF/CCF should be no longer freestyling it.


What I am saying is that ACF should be answerable to the CoC at a lot lower level than they are now. The link between ACF and the real world (if such a thing exists) is at such a high level that it almost does not exist in practice. I would like the link to lie no higher than Brigade and that instructors are "posted" in for tours from the local TA.

The County is essentially a major unit within the Regional Bde. The CO answers to the Brig. OC CTT has a fair say to, and CTT Sgts should be visiting dets every 3 to 6 months.

I am highly suspicious of the current position where many ACF staff are ex cadets who, for whatever reason, did not go on to join TA or Regular. I would much prefer it if all cadet instructors had some recent experience of the forces, if only to counter some of the nonsence that comes from the old & bold, some of who still seem to be stuck in the Boer war. I would like to see a ban on ex cadets becoming CIs until they had gained at least Cpl rank in the regular or reserve forces..

A LOT of Countys are now introducting 'holidays' where ex-Cadets can't just roll in to Adult Instructors. Personnaly I've always favoured the ACF wearing an ACF capbadge, with ex Reg/TA blokes wearing their own capbadge. It wouldn't bother the good Youth Workers, but the ones with aspirations beyond their abilities I don't really care about.

You have to balance both the 'holiday' and the capbadge thing or your TA/Reg only idea with reccruiting adults. No adults, no Det.


With the reformation of the UK force profile, there will be challenges in producing a sensible command structure, particularly in the reserve area. I think, by bringing Cadet units into the equation, a much better overall structure can be achieved for all concerned.
Like said above, they ARE in the COC. Under the Regional Bde.
 
#19
Admin and governance nightmare, as has been previously stated. Any ideas of "militarising" the ACF are non-starters as the UK is a signatory to the UN convention on child soldiers.
 
S

swampmonster

Guest
#20
Obvious G7 / G4 issue, but who would staff it?

You missed out G1 and the huge cost of enhanced CRB for all the Admin/Trg staff

We have issues getting high quality DS for the ATU's from Line Units (Not the dumped ones, The ones who give a ****), where we getting these ones from?
 

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