Jordan Peterson on Cathy Newman

[Cold_Collation]

Successful conditioning means they wouldn't consider doing so.
If they have and continue to grow up in a world where they are told at school, university, daily news and their social media that there is only one good set of beliefs to hold then they would do no more than give other sets of beliefs a cursory inspection - just enough for confirmation bias.

This.

There are lots of journeyman degrees out there which are little more than Marxist indoctrination.

That, plus, as in schools, people are taught ‘the’ answer, rather than being encouraged to find it for themselves.

Ergo, these (un)bright young things emerge determined to rid the world of (the many, nonexistent) injustices that they are sure need to change.

 

[RCT(V)]

Irrelevant of location , media ( print, tv , radio ) has traditionally attracted creative personalities. By their very nature, the vast majority of creative personality types can be considered left leaning on a political spectrum.

That's true but it's also not the whole picture. You would have thought "creative" types would be pro-free-speech for example, but the current lot are the exact opposite. Or left-wingers would be pro-working-class but again, so-called creatives (who really create nothing) are the exact opposite.

The really imaginative, innovative, free-thinking, creative types, are engineers (Sir Nigel Gresley, Barnes Wallis, Frank Whittle, Sir Alec Issigonis, etc.), scientists, "medicos" . . .

I think @MuddyOldEngineer's intention was/is, to use the word "creative", in a sarcastic, cynical sense, of not being able to do anything practical, useful . . . but - as it has now become accepted to mean - being "good-with-colours" . . . able to imagine purple sequins on a yellow material .

 

[Ortholith]

This.

There are lots of journeyman degrees out there which are little more than Marxist indoctrination.

That, plus, as in schools, people are taught ‘the’ answer, rather than being encouraged to find it for themselves.

Ergo, these (un)bright young things emerge determined to rid the world of (the many, nonexistent) injustices that they are sure need to change.

Your evidence for that assertion is? I appreciate I'm picking on this post as a quote but the same idea has been put forward by several people on this thread.

We're back with Schrodinger's teachers who are somehow incapable of teaching children to read, write or do basic maths but are simultaneously capable of brainwashing them into being woke/leftist/Marxist/insert other ist here.

I've posted the numbers on here before. 195 teaching days per year, an average of 6 hours in a classroom per day and 8 hours of sleep means kids are exposed to teachers' brainwashing for 20% of their time awake per year. That's an overestimate as a lot of the older ones get far less than 8 hours sleep per night as they are busy on social media until the early hours of the morning.

The real influences on teenagers' thinking are (in no particular order) family, friends, media and social media. They don't watch TV, they watch Youtube personalities and streamers. They don't talk, they have groupchats on WhatsApp or iMessenger.

Must go, I've got to plan how to turn the next generation into a bunch of woke morons who eat crayons but not the black ones as that would be racist.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Your evidence for that assertion is? I appreciate I'm picking on this post as a quote but the same idea has been put forward by several people on this thread.

We're back with Schrodinger's teachers who are somehow incapable of teaching children to read, write or do basic maths but are simultaneously capable of brainwashing them into being woke/leftist/Marxist/insert other ist here.

I've posted the numbers on here before. 195 teaching days per year, an average of 6 hours in a classroom per day and 8 hours of sleep means kids are exposed to teachers' brainwashing for 20% of their time awake per year. That's an overestimate as a lot of the older ones get far less than 8 hours sleep per night as they are busy on social media until the early hours of the morning.

The real influences on teenagers' thinking are (in no particular order) family, friends, media and social media. They don't watch TV, they watch Youtube personalities and streamers. They don't talk, they have groupchats on WhatsApp or iMessenger.

Must go, I've got to plan how to turn the next generation into a bunch of woke morons who eat crayons but not the black ones as that would be racist.

A mate told me.

 

[Polyester]

Your evidence for that assertion is? I appreciate I'm picking on this post as a quote but the same idea has been put forward by several people on this thread.

We're back with Schrodinger's teachers who are somehow incapable of teaching children to read, write or do basic maths but are simultaneously capable of brainwashing them into being woke/leftist/Marxist/insert other ist here.

I've posted the numbers on here before. 195 teaching days per year, an average of 6 hours in a classroom per day and 8 hours of sleep means kids are exposed to teachers' brainwashing for 20% of their time awake per year. That's an overestimate as a lot of the older ones get far less than 8 hours sleep per night as they are busy on social media until the early hours of the morning.

The real influences on teenagers' thinking are (in no particular order) family, friends, media and social media. They don't watch TV, they watch Youtube personalities and streamers. They don't talk, they have groupchats on WhatsApp or iMessenger.

Must go, I've got to plan how to turn the next generation into a bunch of woke morons who eat crayons but not the black ones as that would be racist.

I think you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion there Ortolith. He was talking about the ability to critically think. Do you maintain that the standard of critical thinking is the same as, let’s say, the 50’s? 60’s? 70s?

E2A; I should have added a question: in the teaching professions, as an average, are you afforded the time to teach children how to question effectively? Or, as most people suspect, are you given only the time to get them through a curriculum with no room for anything else?

 

[Ortholith]

I think you may have jumped to the wrong conclusion there Ortolith. He was talking about the ability to critically think. Do you maintain that the standard of critical thinking is the same as, let’s say, the 50’s? 60’s? 70s?

No. That is an issue across the whole of society. I'm just not into blaming the education system without evidence.

There's plenty of things that should be fixed in the education system. The requirements for massive amounts of rote learning, the need for all students to be forced into exams that some cannot achieve, an institutional unwillingness to expel students that do not belong in a classroom etc. Marxist brainwashing is not one of those issues unless I've missed something massive in my training courses.

E2A; I should have added a question: in the teaching professions, as an average, are you afforded the time to teach children how to question effectively? Or, as most people suspect, are you given only the time to get them through a curriculum with no room for anything else?

The latter to an extent that most people don't realise, even other teachers. The 'soft' subjects seem to finish teaching their courses around March with exams starting late May. In previous years I've been lucky to finish by the end of April. This year due to the impact of lockdown I am cramming multiple lessons together and still might not finish in time.

 

[Polyester]

No. That is an issue across the whole of society. I'm just not into blaming the education system without evidence.

There's plenty of things that should be fixed in the education system. The requirements for massive amounts of rote learning, the need for all students to be forced into exams that some cannot achieve, an institutional unwillingness to expel students that do not belong in a classroom etc. Marxist brainwashing is not one of those issues unless I've missed something massive in my training courses.

Apologies, I was editing my previous as you were answering. Cheers.

 

[Cold_Collation]

The latter to an extent that most people don't realise, even other teachers. The 'soft' subjects seem to finish teaching their courses around March with exams starting late May. In previous years I've been lucky to finish by the end of April. This year due to the impact of lockdown I am cramming multiple lessons together and still might not finish in time.

Ah, that's why you're so tetchy.

 

[gorillaguts981]

I would love to see a small amount of time devoted to lessons along the lines of 'I'm not going to teach you anything apart from how to research, how to think critically and how to learn'. The question is as important as the answer and how it was derived.

 

[3ToedSloth]

True, but imagine the stress put on people like Dr Peterson, the poor guy has been extremely unwell, had a physical dependency to a drug he was prescribed and he's barely survived. Not like he's a thick skinned professional politician, just a man with the sheer guts to stand up for what he considers right and moral. Asking people like him to take on the woke critical mass including the vast majority of the press with all the abuse they dish out is unfair at best.

Let's not be so naïve as to think he's a saviour solely on a mission to fight the injustices of the world. He's made a lot of money in the last few years. When he still had his Patreon account he was bringing in $80k a month. Then there's the bestseller books and the sell-out tours. He's attracted quite the cult following and every bit of "abuse" he receives boosts his appeal amongst his followers and gets him on another Joe Rogan podcast. I've heard most of those podcasts and watched some of his YouTube videos. He makes some very reasonable points, but I don't agree with everything he has to say. His opinions should be subject to as much scrutiny as anyone else.

 

[halo_jones]

Let's not be so naïve as to think he's a saviour solely on a mission to fight the injustices of the world. He's made a lot of money in the last few years. When he still had his Patreon account he was bringing in $80k a month. Then there's the bestseller books and the sell-out tours. He's attracted quite the cult following and every bit of "abuse" he receives boosts his appeal amongst his followers and gets him on another Joe Rogan podcast. I've heard most of those podcasts and watched some of his YouTube videos. He makes some very reasonable points, but I don't agree with everything he has to say. His opinions should be subject to as much scrutiny as anyone else.

I do think that "He makes some very reasonable points, but I don't agree with everything he has to say" is a key point and it is being lost, across society writ large.

This positioning is I have no doubt has been encouraged vis-à-vis through social media and journalism, being not very good at their jobs or worse yet activistic in nature too have any discussion sit in a position of only 'absolute positions'.

 

[3ToedSloth]

I do think that "He makes some very reasonable points, but I don't agree with everything he has to say" is a key point and it is being lost, across society writ large.

This positioning is I have no doubt has been encouraged vis-à-vis through social media and journalism, being not very good at their jobs or worse yet activistic in nature too have any discussion sit in a position of only 'absolute positions'.

True. It's the credibility of ideas rather than personalities that should be challenged or championed.

 

[3ToedSloth]

I would love to see a small amount of time devoted to lessons along the lines of 'I'm not going to teach you anything apart from how to research, how to think critically and how to learn'. The question is as important as the answer and how it was derived.

It's a good point, but it's not all to do with the schools. For those that embark on the hard sciences (physics, maths, chemistry) at university, they should receive a good grounding in learning rational evidence-based thinking. But it always surprises me how many people in the UK see being bad at maths and science as something to boast about. Compare this to China, where no child on the playground would ever say anything so shameful. Much of the popular entertainment here is little more than a celebration of idiocy. Politicians that are happy to avoid the serious questions by playing the buffoon such as Trump and Boris gain the highest office in the land. Anti-vaxx and flat-earth conspiracy theories gaining ground. We could do with a cultural change and a lot of that has to come from the parents.

 

[RCT(V)]

I would love to see a small amount of time devoted to lessons along the lines of 'I'm not going to teach you anything apart from how to research, how to think critically and how to learn'. The question is as important as the answer and how it was derived.

I always understood that to be how (the proper, original) universities worked . . . providing students with the tools to do their OWN research.

Unlike my College of Technology course, which was basically an extension of my Sixth form experience, being talked at/lectured, and furiously taking-down the teachers' notes, to subsequently learn/revise/regurgitate.

Considering, the former College, Polytechnic, background of Blair's new "plastic" "universities" (which EVERYONE MUST attend !!), it is not too difficult to imagine which type of learning experience, education regime, typifies those establishments !!

 

[gorillaguts981]

My wife teaches nursing students straight out of school and they suffer a hard lesson when they have to go to the library (and learn how to use it), read loads of stuff and produce a piece of work. Many are clueless and staff have to take a step backwards and show them how to do things that was done for them at school. It takes them their first year to get the process.

 

[halo_jones]

It's a good point, but it's not all to do with the schools. For those that embark on the hard sciences (physics, maths, chemistry) at university, they should receive a good grounding in learning rational evidence-based thinking. But it always surprises me how many people in the UK see being bad at maths and science as something to boast about. Compare this to China, where no child on the playground would ever say anything so shameful. Much of the popular entertainment here is little more than a celebration of idiocy. Politicians that are happy to avoid the serious questions by playing the buffoon such as Trump and Boris gain the highest office in the land. Anti-vaxx and flat-earth conspiracy theories gaining ground. We could do with a cultural change and a lot of that has to come from the parents.

That it should come from parents is correct, sadly each generational cohort has been dumbed down, in part by design in part from life being made increasingly easy or soft. That is not to say that society should make 'life' a hardship rather that society has increasingly been lead in direction that it could be said that the 'comedy film' Idiocracy is a documentary.

A telling point is who was most offended before its release...

In The New York Times, Dan Mitchell argued that Fox might be shying away from the cautionary tale about low-intelligence dysgenics, because the company did not want to offend either its viewers or potential advertisers portrayed negatively in the film.[23] This theory has been given extra weight by Terry Crews, who stars in the movie as President Camacho. In a 2018 Interview with GQ Magazine he talked of advertisers being unhappy at the way they were portrayed, which affected the studio's efforts to promote the movie. He said, "The rumor was, because we used real corporations in our comedy (I mean, Starbucks was giving hand jobs) these companies gave us their name thinking they were gonna get 'pumped up', and then we're like, 'Welcome to CostCo, we love you' [delivered in monotone]. All these real corporations were like, 'Wait a minute, wait a minute' [...] there were a lot of people trying to back out, but it was too late. And so Fox, who owned the movie, decided, 'We're going to release this in as few theaters as legally possible'. So it got a release in, probably, three theaters over one weekend and it was sucked out, into the vortex".[24]

Idiocracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Consumerism like capitalism is neither inherently either good or bad, and while this may be seen as tangential too both Dr Peterson and to your comparison to Chinese parenting. I do think that in-part society's view of both, are out of balance because of each generational cohort having been dumbed down, to equate stuff rather than deeds as important.

This is because I believe sadly both the left right political sphere, have over the decades become filled with incompetent and opportunists who have encouraged on the 'right' political disengagement and the 'left' self responsibility.

I do hope that there is a path out, I do believe there are green shoots visable of that path and society is starting to see and react to them, sadly it wont be quick or fix everything but it's a path society must take else-wise there will be no society.

The parts of Dr Peterson's work I find most engaging is that at its heart is the encouragement of self responsibility rather than blaming everything else for ones life hardships.

 

[halo_jones]

My wife teaches nursing students straight out of school and they suffer a hard lesson when they have to go to the library (and learn how to use it), read loads of stuff and produce a piece of work. Many are clueless and staff have to take a step backwards and show them how to do things that was done for them at school. It takes them their first year to get the process.

Indeed while I entered University in my 40's, for a fashion BA, I was surprised and disappointed to find that post secondary education were largely unprepared in basic skills let alone technical ability. One would expect a fashion student to have some knowledge and experience of 'a sewing machine'.

The teaching staff were largely second rate, and while 'fashion' or the arts in general are not a 'STEM' basic teaching skills is at the very least a requirement one would think. It rather made me cross at times that I did more teaching than they did.

 

[Cold_Collation]

Indeed while I entered University in my 40's, for a fashion BA, I was surprised and disappointed to find that post secondary education were largely unprepared in basic skills let alone technical ability. One would expect a fashion student to have some knowledge and experience of 'a sewing machine'.

The teaching staff were largely second rate, and while 'fashion' or the arts in general are not a 'STEM' basic teaching skills is at the very least a requirement one would think. It rather made me cross at times that I did more teaching than they did.

Such as being beaten repeatedly around the head with one?

 

[Yokel]

I always understood that to be how (the proper, original) universities worked . . . providing students with the tools to do their OWN research.

Unlike my College of Technology course, which was basically an extension of my Sixth form experience, being talked at/lectured, and furiously taking-down the teachers' notes, to subsequently learn/revise/regurgitate.

Considering, the former College, Polytechnic, background of Blair's new "plastic" "universities" (which EVERYONE MUST attend !!), it is not too difficult to imagine which type of learning experience, education regime, typifies those establishments !!

As someone who went to a former Polytechnic that changed to a University when the Major Governnent made that decision, I shake my head at that. Do you really want Engineering and Science students not to be taught things? Traditionally the academic establishment had a strong bias against Engineering.

Exactly how much critical thinking is needed to graduate in The Classics or PPE?

What has this got to do with Prof Peterson and attacks against him?

 

[halo_jones]

Exactly how much critical thinking is needed to graduate in The Classics or PPE?

I would contend that critical thinking is an essential part of education, be it the classics, PPE and the like or hard sciences and engineering.

I do suspect that some in the wider educational world some choose too interpret 'critical thinking' as a tool of criticism only, too suit personal bias and agendas, which is the polar opposite of actual critical thinking.

Rather than what is should be considered as which is a mental tool to aid in making judgements that can then be based on factual, contextual, or historical evidence.