JOINT SERVICES MY ARSSE

Discussion in 'Army Pay, Claims & JPA' started by Stu_Finn, Aug 4, 2004.

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  1. 1. An Army Officer is more highly trained than an RAF or Navy Officer. Why is it that a Navy/RAF Officer will be the equivalent of Captain, WITHOUT a degree sooner than an Army GRADUATE? We have to do JOTES/JOTAC/JOLP etc but theirs is automatic. Why?

    2. An Army pilot only receives flying pay at HALF the rate of an RAF/NAVY pilot and only AFTER conversion to type. We have to do a 6 month A/C Commanders course before going to the next rate.

    Joint Services? I don't think so.

    Anyone care to comment?
     
  2. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    1. Can you qualify your assertion by providing some evidence that Army officers are more highly trained?

    2. Individuals make an informed choice prior to joining and Teeny Weeny Airways pilots presumably find other advantageous aspects of their job which outweigh the flying pay issue.
     
  3. Like not having to wear that "oh so tacky" uniform for a start. And not being surrounded by lots of people called Kevin who wear white socks and shiny trousers.

    Good luck with the cutbacks. :cry:
     
  4. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    Nice to see you biting, Eth... :lol:

    Nothing to contribute re the justification for the original assertion?
     
  5. Bad CO

    Bad CO LE Admin Reviews Editor Gallery Guru

    Who ever said that Terms of Service are Joint? I think you'll find the answer to that is no-one. This explains the difference in rates of flying pay.

    As for your other points, I think you'll find that the three services expect completely different things from their officer aircrew. You will be expected to be an Army officer first / pilot second (whether you agree with this is irrelevant), the Navy place much more emphasis on developing flying skills whilst the RAF value proficiency at filling in claim forms & whingeing above all else.

    On the positive side you will almost certainly be a Major before your RN/RAF peers become Lt Cdrs/Sqn Ldrs. You'll be pleased to know that this will really, really upset them.....
     
  6. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    Much as I hate to contradict Bad CO, it is well known that RAF aircrew are in fact unable to complete their own claim forms; they rarely speak to anyone else so their whingeing is largely confined to amongst themselves . Their main skills are swaggering about in flying suits and irritating everyone else, including all other RAF personnel.

    Much as I hate to admit it, Ethel's swipe regarding dress is mostly correct. I am cuurently living in a FJ mess, where the dress standards appear to be almost non-existent. I was clearly converted during the 6 years I spent living in Army messes, evidenced by my regular harrumphs from behind the Times in the ante-room as yet another pilot walks in at 2100 in a flying suit!
     
  7. Attached to each opening window in the upstairs rooms at the Mess in RAF Uxbridge is a little sticky thing which says "Danger of Falling". Even the MOD must think that the Crabs are intellectually and common sense (ically) lacking.
     
  8. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    Mushroom, whilst at RAF Uxbridge, did you also notice the signs adjacent to every hot water tap which warn that the water therein may, bizarrely, be hot! I lived on the ground floor of the Mess, so was not considered at risk of falling from a window. Shame there was no sign as one was leaving the camp warning of the feral people outside.

    This is, of course, the H&S/PC brigade gone mad; I suspect they are supported by the Stn Cdr, an admin type who refers to Mess transitees as 'customers'..... :roll:
     
  9. I know for the RN that the promotion may be a little bit faster, Lt= Captain and all that.

    however do bare in mind that a 2nd Lt is superior to a Midi and a Lt (Army is superior to a Sub Lt Navy *1. Yet the jump to Sub lt and Lt seems to be a lot quicker in the RN or so the literature says (with degree giving you almost certainly a very short time to the jump to Lt).

    However, from there and branch dependant it will be a lot harder and an up hill battle. Do remember a Lt can command a small vessel (Warfare) however the jump to Lt Commander (Major for the Army) as Bad CO says is a bit harder for them.

    I believe that's the Executive officer or First Lieutenant of a larger vessel, frigate/destroyer. With limited numbers of appointments (due to fleet size) I'd imagine there is a slow rate that they can advance.

    This is of course only based on my limited views and experiances with the Royal Navy and others e.g. Fish or Bernulli (excuse spelling) could probably be a lot clearer.

    *1 factual evidence http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/static/pages/3923.html
     
  10. I accept that its harder for them after getting to Lieutenant and perhaps its a retention/ recruiting issue, but I feel that a year at Sandhurst in preparation for a YO's course must be better training. Any Officer passing out of RMAS must be capable of taking a platoon/troop straight away even if no YO's course has been completed yet. Officers regularly go to their units before completing the YOs courses and for the Air Corps there is usually an infantry attachment or RAC job prior to the pilots course. The responsibility of commanding a platoon in NI, or recently Iraq straight out of the factory is surely more than an RAF/ RN officer can expect out of Cranwell or Dartmouth and without demeaning the jobs they do, I think that Army Officers, and the Army in general get screwed in terms of pay and conditions.

    Perhaps the fundamental issue is that we are taught from day one to toe the line. The RAF are very good at saying they can't do the job without certain things, but the Army have a bad habit of succeeding with minimal resources which is perhaps why we are the best trained Army in the world. I would like to see a bit of fairness ascross the board and to see the efforts that we put in reflected...aaargghhhhhh...rant...aaarrghh..

    Its frustrating when you work hard at Uni, and then Sandhurst and then have to work alongside people that have no degree and are not real Officers but get paid more. Damn.
     
  11. ViroBono

    ViroBono LE Moderator

    I think all UK forces have done the job with minimal resources. The age of many RAF aircraft (particularly the AT fleet), is a cause for concern, but is has not stopped the RAF doing the best possible job in the circumstances.

    Please explain how university makes you a better officer. Do you have a degree that is directly related to the job you do now? Does your rather arrogant statement means that you do not approve of LE officers?

    As I said before, you had a choice before you joined - it's no good whining if you made the wrong decision and now you're jealous.

    As for your comments being a rant - I thought it well balanced - a chip on each shoulder. :roll:
     

  12. Although it goes against the grain to agree with a Crab I have to echo the sentiments of VB.

    Furthermore, who actually "works hard" at Uni? This is unusual unless you are either:

    a) doing medicine or law - in which case you are unlikley to be in the Army

    or

    b) incredibly stupid and therefore have to work hard.

    I would also be interested to know what you mean by people who aren't "real officers" ? Are you really that arrogant?
     
  13. Kel

    Kel Old-Salt

    Those (potential) solicitors have got to work hard, practicing screwing as many people as they can, which is exactly what their job will be when they leave Uni. Oh, and learning strange ceremonies for the masons.
     
  14. LE Officers are great. Thoroughly approve. I am certainly not arrogant about them and earlier on I said I wasn't demeaning the jobs that the other services do. The real Officers comment wasn't fair. I meant they weren't trained as commanders/troop leaders so I apologise if that came out wrong.

    You say that I am whining so perhaps I haven't been as eloquent as I could have been. I blame this on expediency so apologise. I was simply saying that Army Officers across the board, graduates or not, are trained for a job which carries more initial responsibility.
     
  15. I suppose it is supply and demand. If there was suddelny a shortage of people willing to go to Sandhurst and do the jobs then they would increase the pay. Economics i suppose.

    Reference flying pay though, there is an equal opportunities issue there. It will be a brave man that steps into the breach on that one.