Johnny Mercer sacked tonight

Be quiet now, there's a good gentleman.

You'll upset the lads.

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What's the point in being Generalissimo if you can't make political show trials disappear like IRA murder victims?
 

ches

LE
Realistically, given the tens of thousands of troops that served in NI over some 30 years, how many have been prosecuted, or are being prosecuted, and what for?
It seems to be only those involved in shooting some member of the opposition?

Thats not quite true & JM alludes to it in his resig letter. Practically every incident was investigated at the time using the available evidence (the why's & wherefore's of any possible 'bent' investigation can be pushed to one side on this as there is no evidence that ever happened). A verdict was passed on each & every incident. As with every other crime, unless there is fresh evidence brought to light that could cast doubt on that verdict then the verdict stands. What is going to happen in NI (now that there is a green light given by these bastards in the Commons) is to allow many many vexatious claims through the civil courts but more dangerously, official investigations to be opened by the PSNI with all the openness that the GFA demanded with regards to Policing.

How & why is that going to happen?

Because the deals that were & have been made with SF to maintain the 'peace' with the mainstream PIRA must involve them being 'allowed' to demand investigations of almost any incident they choose. Mark my words, this is going to happen & i suspect there will be a number of NI veteran deaths in the coming years that will be attributable to PIRA getting revenge.
 
Thats not quite true & JM alludes to it in his resig letter. Practically every incident was investigated at the time using the available evidence (the why's & wherefore's of any possible 'bent' investigation can be pushed to one side on this as there is no evidence that ever happened). A verdict was passed on each & every incident. As with every other crime, unless there is fresh evidence brought to light that could cast doubt on that verdict then the verdict stands. What is going to happen in NI (now that there is a green light given by these bastards in the Commons) is to allow many many vexatious claims through the civil courts but more dangerously, official investigations to be opened by the PSNI with all the openness that the GFA demanded with regards to Policing.

How & why is that going to happen?

Because the deals that were & have been made with SF to maintain the 'peace' with the mainstream PIRA must involve them being 'allowed' to demand investigations of almost any incident they choose. Mark my words, this is going to happen & i suspect there will be a number of NI veteran deaths in the coming years that will be attributable to PIRA getting revenge.

There are some incidents where the verdict was highly dubious, if you were Majella O'Hares parents would you have believed that justice was served correctly?

A whole 6 soldiers have been charged from the tens if not hundreds of thousands who served there. Sinn Fein must be pretty shit if thats all they can demand.
 

Glad_its_all_over

ADC
Book Reviewer
Boris is going to be toast.

As soon as a credible Opposition Party can be formed...
Boris is probably en route to exciting new, profitable opportunities as soon as all this Covid nonsense is back in its box and Sunak can take over with a clean sheet, with Brexit done and all the pandemic stuff kicked into the long grass.
 

ches

LE
There are some incidents where the verdict was highly dubious, if you were Majella O'Hares parents would you have believed that justice was served correctly?

A whole 6 soldiers have been charged from the tens if not hundreds of thousands who served there. Sinn Fein must be pretty shit if thats all they can demand.

Yeah there were, as i alluded to, but until new evidence comes to light then that verdict stands dubious or not. Am totally against any miscarriages but unless there is evidence we can't go launching multi-million pound investigations just because SF/PIRA want one. That is what is going to happen esp now that NI troops are not going to be included in the legislation. It has to be asked why is that? There have been numerous operations & campaigns we have been involved in over the last 75 years, many of which involved some possibly pretty dubious use of ROE's, tactics etc & yet service men & women from Banner, with all the ongoing political fall out & sensitiveness of the province are not to be offered the protection even IF NO NEW evidence comes to light.
It smacks of things on a whim, the whim of whom being most important here.

While 6 may have been charged, the HIT are looking nearly EVERY incident involving deaths of opposition not just civilians. Again the, clarity now that Banner people can be pursued, clears the way for HIT & others to conduct any sort of investigation into almost anything. In some case that may be justified, but who is controlling that, who is controlling the release or use of information esp pers details of former troops. I know of multiple applications by ex-Banner guys for concealed carry permits, a number of which have been granted. These are guys living in mainland UK, not NI or Eire, so there is a clear & present threat to their security as a result of interest from HIT & other PSNI teams. The question has to be asked, why is that? Is PSNI so open or riddled with republican sympathisers that there is a genuine concern that info will be passed onto to 'former' PIRA members or is it that senior politicians in NI who may have current & historical links to the para-militaries be passing information themselves?
 
Yeah there were, as i alluded to, but until new evidence comes to light then that verdict stands dubious or not.

No they dont, thats why some convicted people are released because they never did anything and the courts fucked up.


Am totally against any miscarriages but unless there is evidence we can't go launching multi-million pound investigations just because SF/PIRA want one.
Im going to take a wild guess here and suggest that the families might also want one. You would probably want one if your child was shot by the British Army and you thought your child had done nothing wrong.


That is what is going to happen esp now that NI troops are not going to be included in the legislation. It has to be asked why is that? There have been numerous operations & campaigns we have been involved in over the last 75 years, many of which involved some possibly pretty dubious use of ROE's, tactics etc & yet service men & women from Banner, with all the ongoing political fall out & sensitiveness of the province are not to be offered the protection even IF NO NEW evidence comes to light.
It smacks of things on a whim, the whim of whom being most important here.
Unfortunately the law/courts in Northern Ireland werent exactly impartial. If it was a whim there would be far more than 6 in the dock.
Afghanistan/Iraq had less soldiers involved in a shorter time period and more than six faced charged for being bellends.


While 6 may have been charged, the HIT are looking nearly EVERY incident involving deaths of opposition not just civilians. Again the, clarity now that Banner people can be pursued, clears the way for HIT & others to conduct any sort of investigation into almost anything. In some case that may be justified, but who is controlling that, who is controlling the release or use of information esp pers details of former troops. I know of multiple applications by ex-Banner guys for concealed carry permits, a number of which have been granted. These are guys living in mainland UK, not NI or Eire, so there is a clear & present threat to their security as a result of interest from HIT & other PSNI teams. The question has to be asked, why is that? Is PSNI so open or riddled with republican sympathisers that there is a genuine concern that info will be passed onto to 'former' PIRA members or is it that senior politicians in NI who may have current & historical links to the para-militaries be passing information themselves?

Heres a link to what has happened, as opposed to what the tabloids allude to


Note
However, the PPS for Northern Ireland has also sought to make clear that of the 26 prosecution cases brought since 2011 in relation to legacy issues, 21 of those cases have involved republican and loyalist paramilitaries. Several of those cases are ongoing.

Not much media coverage about those 21 cases.
 

HCL

LE
No they dont, thats why some convicted people are released because they never did anything and the courts fucked up.



Im going to take a wild guess here and suggest that the families might also want one. You would probably want one if your child was shot by the British Army and you thought your child had done nothing wrong.



Unfortunately the law/courts in Northern Ireland werent exactly impartial. If it was a whim there would be far more than 6 in the dock.
Afghanistan/Iraq had less soldiers involved in a shorter time period and more than six faced charged for being bellends.




Heres a link to what has happened, as opposed to what the tabloids allude to


Note
However, the PPS for Northern Ireland has also sought to make clear that of the 26 prosecution cases brought since 2011 in relation to legacy issues, 21 of those cases have involved republican and loyalist paramilitaries. Several of those cases are ongoing.

Not much media coverage about those 21 cases.

Did you actually serve on Banner?
 
Did you actually serve on Banner?

No I served in Iraq and Afghanistan, where several soldiers were prosecuted for their actions, clearly on banner in those 30 years every soldier was outstanding and never did anything wrong.
Obviously that 12 year girl deserved to be shot in the back twice for walking to church.
 

HCL

LE
No I served in Iraq and Afghanistan, where several soldiers were prosecuted for their actions, clearly on banner in those 30 years every soldier was outstanding and never did anything wrong.
Obviously that 12 year girl deserved to be shot in the back twice for walking to church.

CGAF.
 
The BBC makes no mention of him being sacked by text, which is unusual if it's true. Good for him for sticking to his guns, I think it's a disgrace that NI wasn't covered by the bill.
He only stuck to his guns because No 10 beat him to his removal from office.

If he genuinely has integrity and strong enough feeling, he won't let this pass by without speaking out in the media and in the commons, i very much hope he does.
 

Bubbles_Barker

LE
Book Reviewer
He only stuck to his guns because No 10 beat him to his removal from office.

If he genuinely has integrity and strong enough feeling, he won't let this pass by without speaking out in the media and in the commons, i very much hope he does.
I have a very funny feeling that he will sooner rather than later.

It will be interesting to watch Boris squirm when he makes his first post-sacking speech in the HoC.
 
Here's his latest from the Torygraph this monring.

Johnny Mercer, the sacked Defence Minister, has accused Boris Johnson of surrounding himself with “cowards” and “desperately weak” advisers who had “betrayed” veterans of the Northern Ireland conflict.
In an exclusive interview with The Telegraph, Mr Mercer launched an excoriating attack on Mr Johnson’s administration, claiming his experience during two years as Veterans’ Minister had been “horrific”.
He said he had been treated “like s*** throughout”.
He also described the Government as “the most distrustful, awful environment” in which he had worked and added: “Almost nobody tells the truth.”
Mr Mercer, 39, a former captain in the Army, had told Downing Street out of courtesy of his intention to resign over his frustration at the Government’s failure to offer legal protection to ex-soldiers facing prosecution over killings during the Troubles.
But instead, he says Number 10 leaked his planned resignation, and then sacked him by text message.
He said the prosecution of veterans, many in their 70s and 80s over events as long as 50 years ago, was a “huge scandal” and an “appalling betrayal” for a Government that had failed to stop it.
On Monday two soldiers (identified only as A and C) will go on trial charged with the murder of Joe McCann, a former official IRA commander who died in Belfast in 1972.
Mr Mercer told The Telegraph that he repeatedly came up against obstacles to his attempts to offer protection to the troops who served in Northern Ireland.
A separate Bill, which does give protection from prosecution to servicemen and women in overseas conflicts, is being shepherded through parliament. However, Northern Ireland veterans are excluded from the Overseas Operations Bill.
Mr Mercer said: “This is not about justice. It is about a group of lawyers and average politicians sucking at a firehose of public money, trashing veterans in the process and dragging out the grief for the families.
“It’s the sort of thing the Boris Johnson I know stands up against. But leadership is all about who you surround yourself with. If you surround yourself with desperately weak people who will endlessly tell you what you want to hear, driven by Spads [special advisers] who have that classic combination of over-confidence blended perfectly with total ineptitude, you will get surprises.”
Tory MP Johnny Mercer who was forced to resign as a defence minister, by number 10, over the treatment of veterans who served in Northern Ireland.

Tory MP Johnny Mercer won his seat from Labour in 2015 and had grown his majority to almost 13,000 at the last election CREDIT: Geoff Pugh for The Telegraph
He said the problem the Government had was it had promised “things to people who have already been discarded by a country they fought for”, adding: “It is almost worse than not saying anything in the first place and carrying on as if this problem did not exist.
“That has been the approach for years now: essentially, the political calculation is that veterans won’t say much, Northern Ireland is a tinderbox, and it’s not worth the grief. Well I have always made it clear that I will do whatever it takes to make people care about these people, care as much about them as we do about statues, Brexit, football and everything else.”
Mr Mercer, a popular MP who won his seat from Labour in 2015 and then grew his majority to almost 13,000 at the last election, said: “For me it’s a huge scandal, up there with contaminated blood and Windrush. Imagine if it was your Dad, your uncle, reliving all this stuff they have already been tried for, vulnerable already in their 70s and 80s. It is an appalling betrayal.”
He complained of the inertia to act and bring in legislation to protect troops. Mr Mercer, now sat on the backbenches and popular with hundreds of thousands of former soldiers, threatens to be a thorn in Mr Johnson’s side.
“The arguments against doing anything are nonsense made by people with deficient backbones who do not understand the intricacies of the problem,” he said.
Mr Mercer recognised the need for soldiers “who commit a crime in uniform to be held to account” and said that was irrespective of the time that had passed. But he believes troops who served in Northern Ireland had been investigated at the time, and were now being unfairly picked on.
He said his experiences as a minister had made him determined to resign. But even that was wrecked by Downing Street, when he went to inform them out of courtesy.
He said: “My experience in Government has been horrific, but I’m not going to tell tales out of school. I want to get this issue [of protecting veterans] over the line. It’s safe to say I felt like I was treated like s*** throughout, and the last act of leaking my resignation which I sent as a courtesy only to Number 10 so that I didn’t ambush them, was a huge mistake.
“Any goodwill was lost. And then when I refused to resign I challenged the Chief Whip to look me in the eye and sack me. He couldn’t do it, I left and he texted me. That summed it up. What cowards.”
He went on: “I was fired because I made it clear I was not prepared to parrot the lines from the Northern Ireland office any further.
“They’ve made me look ridiculous. We will walk through legislation in line with your bill; we will deliver within a hundred days; we will deliver by the summer. We will deliver by Christmas. It’s like a skit. They must think I’m stupid. Maybe I am. But the country is not, and at the maturity of the Overseas Operations Bill with nothing forthcoming, I had to go.”
Former Scots Guards captain Leo Docherty has been appointed as Mr Mercer's successor.
Alan Mak was made an unpaid Government whip, filling Mr Docherty's former role, making him the first British-Chinese person to serve in government.
 

Daxx

MIA
Book Reviewer
Unfortunately for him, Mr Mercer made the mistake of thinking his views over rode the stance of HM Governments'.

He was incorrect.
 
Last edited:
He said the prosecution of veterans, many in their 70s and 80s over events as long as 50 years ago, was a “huge scandal” and an “appalling betrayal” for a Government that had failed to stop it.
On Monday two soldiers (identified only as A and C) will go on trial charged with the murder of Joe McCann, a former official IRA commander who died in Belfast in 1972.
Mr Mercer told The Telegraph that he repeatedly came up against obstacles to his attempts to offer protection to the troops who served in Northern Ireland.
A separate Bill, which does give protection from prosecution to servicemen and women in overseas conflicts, is being shepherded through parliament. However, Northern Ireland veterans are excluded from the Overseas Operations Bill.
Mr Mercer said: “This is not about justice. It is about a group of lawyers and average politicians sucking at a firehose of public money, trashing veterans in the process and dragging out the grief for the families.
“It’s the sort of thing the Boris Johnson I know stands up against. But leadership is all about who you surround yourself with. If you surround yourself with desperately weak people who will endlessly tell you what you want to hear, driven by Spads [special advisers] who have that classic combination of over-confidence blended perfectly with total ineptitude, you will get surprises.”
“For me it’s a huge scandal, up there with contaminated blood and Windrush. Imagine if it was your Dad, your uncle, reliving all this stuff they have already been tried for, vulnerable already in their 70s and 80s. It is an appalling betrayal.”

He would probably get more support if he stated that he thought the ex soldiers were innocent, rather than they shouldnt face legal action because they are veterans.
 

Cold_Collation

LE
Book Reviewer
Unfortunately for him, Mr Mercer made the mistake of thinking his views over rode tha stance of HM Governments'.

He was incorrect.
Really? It was strongly hinted that something needed to be done to protect veterans from vexatious prosecution.

This is all about PIRA/SF getting inside the intelligence set-up, as much as retrospective 'justice'.
 
I think he will get plenty support.

Maybe from people who think squaddies are saints and can do no wrong, so if a 12 girl is shot twice in the back, then tough titty for her, but people who arent so blind might have a different opinion.
 
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