Jockistani politicians lose the plot - again!

#1
HERE

The saying "using a hammer to crack a nut" comes to mind.

Singing National Anthem 'could be illegal'

22 June 2011
By Tom Peterkin
FOOTBALL supporters could be jailed for singing God Save the Queen or Flower of Scotland under the SNP's new law to crack down on sectarianism.
Making the sign of the cross or singing Rule Britannia could also be regarded as an offence under certain circumstances once the legislation comes into force next football season.

Community safety minister Roseanna Cunningham yesterday said that such songs and gestures could be regarded as offensive acts when she was questioned about the SNP's anti-sectarian bill being fast-tracked through parliament.

She said: "A sign of a cross is not in itself offensive, but I suppose in circumstances such as Rangers and Celtic fans meeting each other on a crowded street, it could be construed as something offensive."

Ms Cunningham's failure to rule out fans being arrested for singing the National Anthem was described as "worrying" by opposition politicians, who warned that there was a "potentially explosive loophole" in the legislation.

Senior figures in the legal fraternity urged the government to adopt a "common sense" approach to its Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications (Scotland) Bill.

Concern that people could be at risk of being dragged through the courts for singing the National Anthem came as police questioned whether the £500,000 the government has set aside to implement the legislation would be enough.

Conservative justice spokesman John Lamont asked the minister if she could envisage the singing of either the National Anthem or Flower of Scotland "becoming offensive behaviour within the act?" Ms Cunningham replied: "The glib answer to that is 'no, of course not'. But the problem is, for a criminal offence, it is all the facts and circumstances that surround that, that may turn them (sic] into problematic."

She added: "Perhaps it might have been more appropriate to, say, look at Rule Britannia, which I understand is one (song] frequently used on one side of the terraces. Now, I would not regard (that song] as offensive, but it is exactly why we don't start defining which songs, and listing the songs … it really is a matter of facts and the circumstances of the case whether something is or is not offensive."

She went on to suggest that Celtic fans making the sign of the cross could also be judged offensive. "I have seen hundreds of Celtic fans (behave] in a manner which I can only describe as aggressive - making signs of the cross, gesticulating across an open area to Rangers fans."

The new law is being rushed through Holyrood before the parliament rises for the summer recess in less than two weeks. The speed with which it is being examined by MSPs has raised fears among lawyers that it will not be scrutinised properly.

The bill outlaws religious, homophobic and racist abuse by fans at, and on the way to and from football matches. It is also designed to crack down on fans spreading bigoted abuse on the internet. Under the legislation, those found guilty of the new offences of "offensive behaviour" or "threatening communications" can expect sentences ranging from a £40 fixed penalty to a five-year prison sentence or unlimited fine.
The bill was introduced by the SNP government to tackle the bigotry that has marred football matches for decades, but which plumbed new depths recently. Scotland's sectarian problem - which previously has seen controversy surrounding Paul Gascoigne of Rangers imitating flute-playing Orangemen and rows over Arthur Boruc of Celtic crossing himself - reached dangerous levels last season.

Parcel bombs were sent to Celtic manager Neil Lennon, his QC Paul McBride and former MSP Trish Godman, a Celtic fan.

The proposed law does not include a list of proscribed songs. But Ms Cunningham suggested that even God Save the Queen, Rule Britannia or Flower of Scotland could be deemed offensive in certain contexts.

Her comments led to opposition politicians claiming that the new law could criminalise people for singing the National Anthem or crossing themselves. Mr Lamont said: "I am now very concerned about how this legislation might be interpreted. For example, if you are a republican Scot, could you then claim that someone singing God Save The Queen is a sectarian attack on you? If you are English, could you then claim that someone singing Flower of Scotland is a sectarian attack on you? The minister did not rule out this possibility, which is very worrying."

Mr Lamont added: "We have said all along that everyone wants to beat sectarianism, but laws must not be rushed … if the situation is not resolved quickly, then we will consider putting an amendment down to clear up this potentially explosive loophole."

Labour justice spokesman James Kelly added: "The minister's inability to clarify what the bill does in relation to these matters begs the question how police officers will be able to enforce the legislation in just over a month's time."

The Bishop of Motherwell, Joseph Devine, agreed that any sign, song or picture can be abused. He said: "The minister is correct in saying that in certain circumstances such gestures can be provocative.

"In themselves, the sign of the cross and the National Anthem are noble and honourable expressions, but they can be manipulated for evil intent. Those who intentionally and malevolently exploit and corrupt such eminent symbols should be held to account."

Ms Cunningham said that the aspect of the law designed to tackle internet hate crimes would also apply to offensive graffiti, T-shirts, posters and recorded speech.
When asked whether it would also apply to tattoos, she said: "I suppose, arguably, if someone tattooed a death threat all over their body, then it is falling within the ambit of this kind of communication. But I would caution the member against reductio ad absurdum (reducing to an absurdity]."

The cost of the new legislation also came in for criticism with Les Gray of the Scottish Police Federation saying the government estimates were "way off the mark".

Mr Gray said implementing the new legislation properly would require more officers at football grounds, on supporter buses and in pubs.

The Scottish Government has said it does not envisage "significant additional costs" associated with the introduction of the laws, estimating they would not exceed £500,000 in 2011-12. It estimated costs in future years of between £700,000 and £1.5 million.

But Mr Gray said that £700,000 would not "even scratch the surface of what is required.

 
#3
What about the players who eat a lump of grass and cross themselves when they run onto the pitch? Are they liable to prosecution?
 
#4
Anything involving that useless bovine item, Roseanna Cunningham will turn into a clusterf**k. She was environment minister during the last Gov, during which time she proved that she knew less about the environment than Greasy Tony and his mob. As proof, just have a look at the unworkable change in marine conservation (seals) act. Marine Scotland still has no method of formally approving marksmen to the criteria that THEY asked for! Just use non- lethal methods for now: for you and me that means scaring.

I look forward to seeing how she upsets the rest of Scotland now.
 
#5
Flawed to say the least...... so a local derby Celtic v Rangers (50k crowd) all singing or doing anything they can to rile each other, we're gonna need a bigger gaol!!! Sarge!
 

Auld-Yin

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#7
There are a couple if incidents which spring to mind that may cover the question raised by the OP, at least I think among the cut n paste there was a question.

Incident 1 - Celtic v Rangers. Celtic score, in celebration Celtic's goalkeeper turns round to the fans - Rangers fans, and pointedly makes the sign of a cross - I can't remember the keeper but I do remember the incident (from TV as I would never go near a Tims v Jaffas match! - sectarian but towards both sides :) )

Incident 2 - Rangers v Celtic. Rangers score, Rangers player pantomimed playing a flute aka Loyalist Flute Band. (This was Gazza) and he was yellow carded for it).

Both incidents relatively minor but both the type which can and does inflame fans and could prove to be flashpoints. So in answer to the OPs question and one from another about crossing oneself - then yes, it can be a sectarian act and would be covered by the Act.

Cunninghame is not the sharpest tool in the box (and the Scottish parliament has a lot of tools!) but something has to be done to get rid of sectarianism in Scotland, especially between the so called Old Firm fanbase. Don't use and twist politician's faults and defects to break down necessary legislation.

IMO politicians of all parties, churches of all denominations and the public as a whole should support measures to get rid of this from Scottish life. If Cunninghame fucks up, ther help her out, don't use it to score minor points for political purposes - this is more serious than petty politics.
 
#8
Bearing in mind this, err.......... 'animosity' between the two teams has been going on for many, many years - why I said it was 'flawed', was due to the idiocy of an MP saying that they are not allowed to do it anymore, is somewhat pointless!
 
#9
IMO politicians of all parties, churches of all denominations and the public as a whole should support measures to get rid of this from Scottish life. If Cunninghame fucks up, ther help her out, don't use it to score minor points for political purposes - this is more serious than petty politics.
Banning the half wits who travel from Northern Ireland for these matches might be a start. It would give the Jock police some breathing space to deal with their own home grown *********.
 
#10
Point taken Auld Yin, however my point is that something of this importance should not be left to someone who in the past has ignored professional advice and evidence to go 'her' own way ( we have an audio recording of her to this effect). Churches of all flavours cannot be trusted with this, evidence from the past has shown that they will play to the home team. That leaves the polis, who will be left in the middle trying to unravel something that may be totally unworkable.
 
#13
Easiest way to sort this is to ban crowds and TV coverage from any flashpoint matches.

Money talks....
 
#14
Easiest way to sort this is to ban crowds and TV coverage from any flashpoint matches.

Money talks....
If people are so permanently inflamed with loathing and lacking in self-control to the extent that they regularly become enraged to the point of violence at the sight of someone crossing themselves, or at hearing either of their own national anthems sung, there is little point trying to keep them apart. They will just set about each other elsewhere.
 
#15
Auld Alec and his gang of pictish man flesh eating savages, is just trying to clear the field for his own new national anthem for the independant Scotland. Which I suspect will go like this:


The New Scottish national Anthem (Sung to the familiar tune “FLOOOWWWERRRR O’ SKIRRRTLAND)

Oh Alex Salmond, we know your heids, right up your errse
That bankrupted Scotland and squandered all o’ that loot
Before turning southward, to scrounge again
 
#16
If Salmond is serious about this blight and I think he is, he must start with the Education minister. There requires to be several changes in Law. First remove single faith schools; they breed division. Next remove the subject RMO (Religious and Moral Education) and replace it with a firm curriculum. My experience in the West is that this subject is used (abused) by schools in a predominately single faith area to push 'their' faith over everything else. Again, I have collected good evidence of this happening in my area.

Once that is established they can then look at the broader social change. It will not happen quicky, however a law thrown together without serious scrutiny, if unenforceable, is worse than doing nothing.
 
#17
'Cunninghame is not the sharpest tool in the box (and the Scottish parliament has a lot of tools!)' - Billy Connally calls it 'The Wee Pretendy Parliament'.

You can see the logic working when Alex Salmond says he wants the nukes out of Faslane but still wants it to employ the six and a half thousand local workers. Er, Alex, we don't have any non-Nuclear submarines any more.
 
#18
The bill outlaws religious, homophobic and racist abuse by fans at, and on the way to and from football matches.
WTF? Isn't religious, homophobic and racist abuse illegal already? Why do they need a new law for football?
 
#19
There are a couple if incidents which spring to mind that may cover the question raised by the OP, at least I think among the cut n paste there was a question.

Incident 1 - Celtic v Rangers. Celtic score, in celebration Celtic's goalkeeper turns round to the fans - Rangers fans, and pointedly makes the sign of a cross - I can't remember the keeper but I do remember the incident (from TV as I would never go near a Tims v Jaffas match! - sectarian but towards both sides :) )

Incident 2 - Rangers v Celtic. Rangers score, Rangers player pantomimed playing a flute aka Loyalist Flute Band. (This was Gazza) and he was yellow carded for it).

Both incidents relatively minor but both the type which can and does inflame fans and could prove to be flashpoints. So in answer to the OPs question and one from another about crossing oneself - then yes, it can be a sectarian act and would be covered by the Act.

Cunninghame is not the sharpest tool in the box (and the Scottish parliament has a lot of tools!) but something has to be done to get rid of sectarianism in Scotland, especially between the so called Old Firm fanbase. Don't use and twist politician's faults and defects to break down necessary legislation.

IMO politicians of all parties, churches of all denominations and the public as a whole should support measures to get rid of this from Scottish life. If Cunninghame fucks up, ther help her out, don't use it to score minor points for political purposes - this is more serious than petty politics.
Artur Boric was the goalkeeper in question. Interesting to note that your two examples involved non-Scottish / Irish players (the retard Gasgoine and Boric, who is a Pole). This perhaps demonstrates the lack of awareness about how inflammatory such gestures can be by those from outside Scotland / Ireland. I'm not sure how effective the proposed legislation will be - the crime of breach of the peace has always existed and could be applied to the actions of both Gazza and Boric. Problem is that because they're generally unemployed dross (I'm not talking about the general support here) three months in the jail is no deterrent. I've lifted many of these fuckwits over the years as their visting support sullys my city with their presence and the problem is that we're dealing with pondlife scum whose sole identity / pride / raison d'etre revolves around either Rangers or Celtic. A plague on both their rancid houses.
 
#20
I'm not sure how effective the proposed legislation will be - the crime of breach of the peace has always existed and could be applied to the actions of both Gazza and Boric.
The dynamic behind legislation which merely restates an unenforced existing law, is usually the result of a conversation between a Very Senior Copper and a Very Senior Politician, the politico wants to know why the rozzer hasn't brought about peace, harmony and an Earthly Paradise, the rozzer can't blame it on funding because the response to that is 'perhaps we'd better find someone wo can manage their budget better'. So he blames it on the politician's failure to pass adequate laws.

So new laws are passed which, like all those before, are enforced only arbitrarily if at all.
 

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