Javier Solanas Fantasy World

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by tomahawk6, Jul 11, 2005.

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  1. http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/

    An article that I feel is spot on [no surprise hehe]. In the face of terrorism Israel has a right to take whatever measure she deems necessary to protect her citizenry from arab terrorists. If a wall is the means to that end then so be it. The palestinians dont want a wall because to them its their land and a wall essentially establishes the state of Israel a fact they do not want to admit to. Their goal is the complete destruction of Israel and the beginning of another holocaust. Much of Europe seems to side with the palestians rather than supporting one of the few democratic states in the region. Makes one wonder why that is ?
  2. Before everybody nods their heads sagely at how hard Israel has it, maybe it's worth bearing in mind that in the original UN agreement for the founding of the State of Israel, the Jewish people who settled in Palestine after WWII were only given a PART of the country. They then proceeded to take the lot! In addition, Israel remains in defiance of some 30-odd unanimous UN decisions condemning its behaviour, i.e. building illegal settlements on Palestinian land. So while I agree that Israel has every right to defend itself, it's also obvious that the situation wouldn't be as intractable as it is if Israel had honoured the original agreement in the first place. As for the reaction of the Palestinians: what would any population do when being dispossessed of its lands?
  3. Perhaps that is something they should have taken into consideration before , along with other Arab nations, invading the fledgling State in an attempt to destroy it. And the majority of Palestinians disposessed themselves in 1947.
  4. Letterwritingman,

    I'm having a bit of a problem with the "majority of Palestinians dispossessed themselves" bit. If the choice is to leave your land or get topped, well I suppose you might be right in a way. However, the "invasion" of Israel was a direct answer to the wholesale land-grabbing (and killing) that was being instigated by the fledgling State of Israel. Don't forget, the Jews never had any claim, even historically, to the whole country, since the Israelites were only one of many hundreds of tribes populating the country way back when. One of the stated aims of the more radical elements in Israeli society is to exterminate all Palestinians. What would you, or anybody else, do when faced with something like that?
  5. Oh God, here we go again ... two sets of equally bigoted views get pulled out for yet another airing.

    So in my very best Saturday 4pm ITV wrestling voice I give you ...

    In the reeeed cornerrrrrr ... Israel ! Allowed to kill as many Palestinians as they like using bulldozers and F-16s. Shooting Palestinian children ? That's OK, they'd only grow up to be suicide bombers. Dynamite their houses, it's the only language they understand.

    In the bloooooooo cornerrrrr ... Palestine ! Allowed to kill as many Israelis as they like using Semtex waistcoats and Kassam rockets. Placing high explosive in the close vicinity of kids - that's OK, they'd only grow up to be bulldozer drivers and F-16 pilots. Explode yourself on a bus, it's the only language they understand.

    Call me naive if you like, but I think we should be aiming for a solution that avoids mass murder on both sides.
  6. The Palastine question is the open running sore that is used by Islamists to wind up their local followers. Take away the problem and it would be a major step to reducing the worlds level of extreame violence.
    Mind you when you consider that ya average arab has not got beyond tribe, nationalisam being a unheard of dream for their leaders, I do wonder why Palastine looms so large for them.
  7. Very good Letter, but!

    The lands that the Israelis took from various Arab nations they took for their own defence after beating off massed Arab attacks. You may not remember but I do, the Six Day War and Yom Kippur, Sinai and Golan. Massed Arab Armies bent on the destruction of the only democracy in the area and the Israelis fighting for their very existence.

    Since then the Israelis have not handled things as well as they should but then the track record of their opponents has hardly been exemplary. The Palestinians turned on the only Arab nation to treat them well and tried to overthrow Hussein, they would have suceeded if the Bedou hadn't come in from the desert and supported their King. Lebanon, a rich and successful Arab state ruined for twenty years by terrorists claiming to be Palestinians. The UN answer to the right of both Jews and Palestinians for viable homelands was ruined by the dreams of a pack of racist nationalistic socialists who wanted to found a great union of Arabs (which of course they would lead)/

    I am not a fan of the state of Israel and the way in which it has behaved, but then nor am I a fan of the people who want to destroy it.
  8. mushroom,

    I agree with you completely when you say that neither side has acted very responsibly in the situation. I also agree that Israel had no choice but to buffer its borders as a tactical defence move. But that's not the land-grabbing I meant. The country was divvied up by the UN and Israel took the lot. It may surprise you, but I do remember (very well) the various wars Israel fought, but I think in the enthusiasm to support Israel, people tend to forget that Palestine was handed back to the Palestinians after the end of the British mandate and I can well understand the consternation and anger of the Palestinian people when some faraway organisation in the shape of the UN voted in favour of the foundation of the State of Israel. Not only did the British abstain from that vote (in their usual cowardly way), they actively tried to prevent Jews from entering Israel after the war and instead interned them on Cyprus.
    I don't think anyone covered themselves with glory during the whole sordid episode, but since then, there's been very little effort on the part of the international community to improve the situation. I agree entirely with both One_of_the_strange and jonwilly when they say that a solution preventing more bloodshed and avoiding fomenting things even further would be ideal. But that's hardly likely to happen until the Septics make up their minds on the subject. This is a problem that's not going to go away just because we fail to address it properly.
  9. Peace must be made by the two parties - Israel and the arabs. Jon what is your magic solution ?
  10. There are people out there who don't want peace between Jew and Arab because so long as there is war and hatred they will profit from it.
  11. Sorry I'm not Jon but Geneva accords look like good solution.
  12. There is not going to be a fast resolution to this situation as neither side are going to stop their overly macho posturing. Neither side will shift an inch as they will see it as losing face and showing some supposed weakness. There are too many individuals on either side with no interest in actually sitting down and negotiating a win-win situation. There are also probably individuals that have a vested interest in the situation continuing as it is presently as it is more profitable for them. The situation has been going on a very long time and hard line leaders on either side would seem to prefer spouting their hatred and rhetoric and threats of retribution. Pointless really. No one really gains anything from it, except those making money out of it.

    I do not claim to have an answer that will miraculously fix it all over night. A possible start would be a genuine desire from both sides to resolve the situation without continued bloodshed. Until that occurs nothing will change as far as I can see.
  13. Similar situation was in Bosnia. But NATO simply created a map and said the border should be there and that's all. There is 'Green Line'. Both sides should be told that it is their future border and that's all. Negotiations about territorial exchanges could be possible, long term agreemend about lend of territories could be possible too. Israel should be forced to recognize 'Green Line' as a base for negotiations.

    ME conflict is too serious to be resolved only by Israelis and Palestinians.
  14. I am not wise enough to know that answer. As mushroom has just said to many people profit from the situation.
    The Palastine question was a major tool for East and West to upset/annoy the other.
    I am no fan of of Islam and Religion does not figure in my lifestyle.
    All religions/beliefs change with the times, learning teaches people to modify their ideas/ways, but the high practitioners of Islam demand that the word of the book as written 1,700 (?) years ago is absolute law.
    The Jews are no better. Their relgious extremeists the Ultra Orthodox, also require obediance of the written word of pre Christ.
    God what crimes are committed in your name.
    In my life Islam had gone quite and then in 79 our very good friends the French exported the Ayatolla Kohmaini to Iran and the Gulf has not been the same since. Iran the USA appointed Policeman became the new exporter of terror.
    Religion is used as the main combat weapon. Peoples basics belifes are inflamed by the 'leaders' who never stand for election and who claim devine intervention to justify their words.
    Look at my part of the world, Buddists are tolerant and peaceful but don't ever provoke them on their religion or you do have a Tiger by the tail.
    A "Fair" devision of land in Palastine might be a good starting point, but who has the wisdom of Soloman ? Not Me.

  15. I'm also old enough to remember at least the Yom Kippur war.
    This is how it was seen by the pragmatic politicians of the Israeli Labour government of the 1960s-1970s, to create buffer zones and have a pawn for negociations. The only no negociation topic was and is Jerusalem. But unfortunately they got superceeded by the Likud government in coalitions with fanatical right wingers who believe that Jewish rule over all land mentioned in the bible was their manifest destiny and who encouraged religious settlers to move there (often coming from the US).PM Begin himself belonged in the late 1940s to a group, which committed several attrocities against Arab villages to drive the people off their land. Ben Gurion noticed this, but was afraid to take on the fanatics, because he didn't want to split the Jewish community because it was so small after the Shoa. It was a bit like "Right or wrong, my religion". Only after they openly challenged the elected government and got caught smuggling arms into Israel for their private army did Ben Gurion take them on.