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  1. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6530295.stm

    This story, desperately sad as it is, highlights issues around both a woman and a mans right to choose.

    What do the good burghers of the City of ARRSE consider of this story?
  2. I think he has the right to choose as well.

    What decent bloke would want his child to grow up without it's dad? Their relationship broke down ages ago, and while it's sad that it's her last chance to have a baby, it's still half his technically.

    I agree with him. She can always offer a life to a child already born and adopt, there are enough of the poor sods out there who need a good home.
  3. I'm afraid that this is a straightforward case (in my eyes!) of unlucky!

    Some people can have babies, some people can't.

    She was arguing her right to a family, yet ignoring her ex-partners right to not have one.

    This to me appears to be a victory for common sense from the European Courts.
  4. I find the contrast with abortion quite interesting: current UK law (rightly IMO) holds that the father's wishes cannot compel the mother to have an abortion or to refrain from having one. (Every now and then there is a court case in which the father tries to stop the mother having an abortion, with no success to date.)

    The operative principle (or at least, a key principle) in the case of abortion seems to be bodily integrity/bodily self-determination of the woman - such a principle does not apply to the (tragic) IVF case mentioned. (I see that the other woman who was also fighting a similar case has given up?)

    It's hard to know what to do in such a case: being (broadly) a utilitarian, I'm inclinded to think that the woman in the case is suffering more by not having her own child than the man would suffer by such a child being brought into the world.
  5. And what about the child?

    Why should the child grow up without a father?

    With regards to abortions, there is always a risk with any pregnancy and it has a direct impact on the womans body, so I agree the ultimate decision in abortion should lie with the woman.

    In this case however, there is no impact physically, only emotionally, both parties emotions. So I believe the father should have a say. If she craves a child, adopt one.
  6. Artemis,

    I see your point about it affecting the woman by not having her own child.

    However what about the man who doesn't wish to have a child when he is not in a relationship with the mother. What about if she were given permission and the child grew up to look for a father who never wanted her. How would he feel knowing that his own flesh and blood had been born without his wishes?

    Moodybitch is right when she says why doesn't she go for adoption.
  7. There is also the financial angle. The father would, I presume be legally obliged to pay child support if she had won.

    Bottom line, she is a selfish woman. It may not be the popular thing to say but I do not believe in IVF at all. There are plenty of orphans/unwanted kids in the world. If natural selection has decided you cant concieve or you are some sort of raving lesbian feminist or just too greedy to start a family at a sensible time because of your career or whatever, tough.
  8. Agreed about the adoption point: the desire to have "one's own" child does seem to get fetishised in some cases. (Although interesting to note the reaction that some celebs get when they choose to adopt rather then to have their own child.)

    Ref your comment that I've put in bold: such situations happen at the moment, in any circumstance when a woman becomes pregnant when she's not in a relationship and she keeps the baby against the father's wishes.

    What you might say there is "well, he should have used protection" - could the same thing not be said of the man in the IVF case? I.e. "he shouldn't have consented in the first place?"
  9. Well said Blokeonabike.

    If she's that desperate for a child, she should spend the weekend in my house....she'll soon change her mind.
  10. Perhaps he felt under pressure to consent when she was undergoing medical treatment?

    Perhaps he did want to be the father of her child at the time?

    Now he doesn't, so surely he should have the chance to withdraw (sorry about the pun) now that they are no longer together?

    Isn't that better than bringing an unwanted child into the world and having nothing to do with it?
  11. Artemis,

    I agree that the point I made happen all of the time in the UK with regards to unplanned pregnancies and the man having no rights when abortion is involved. That doesn't mean it is correct!

    The point in this case was that he consented to use the embryos while they were a couple. He then withdrew his consent when the situation changed. I don't see that there is anything wrong with him doing that. It is his right to remove consent at any time up until the embryos are implanted - he exercised that right!
  12. Presumably she could formally have waived her right to child support - problem solved.

    While I agree that people should be encouraged to think much more seriously about adoption rather than IVF, I find it hard to conclude that treatment for the medical condition of infertility should be denied. Natural selection isn't a totem that we follow blindly - we use scientific advances to cure congential conditions all the time. After all, we could take the "suck it up" approach to a number of medical conditions that are not life-threatening but nevertheless have a negative impact on people's lives.

    I assume your comment about lesbians refers to the relatively recent BFS recommendation that one cycle of IVF on the NHS should be provided to gay couples and single women as well as straight couples? Again, I find it hard to see why an infertile single or gay woman should be treated differently from an infertile straight woman. I appreciate that "The child needs a father" arguments can be made here, but feel they are adequately responded to a) by the fact that many children brought up by a single or widowed mother are perfectly well-developed and b) by considering whether a fatherless child is SO badly off that it would have been better for that child never to have lived at all (since this is effectively what is being advocated).

    An interesting and emotive subject.
  13. The point about withdrawing consent is a good one: currently we allow withdrawal of consent to end a procedure under virtually all circumstances - there's certainly a compelling argument to be made that the same thing should apply here. I'm by no means convinced that my utilitarian approach is the right one to take!

    Ref your second point: the child wouldn't be unwanted - clearly the mother wants it very much. As I said above, I personally don't buy the "every child needs a father" line.
  14. Slightly off thread,

    But why should anyone receive IVF on the NHS. Surely that would make the couple going for the process Dual Income - No Kids and therefore able to pay for the treatment themselves!
  15. Ermm...the bit about Lesbians/Gays......when you don't actually have all of the working parts to create a child due to your choice of partner, then it is kind of tough really in my view.