Ive not asked for dedicated helicopters, nor do I want them

Discussion in 'The Intelligence Cell' started by armchair_jihad, Jul 1, 2007.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. This complacency will cost us lives in battle

    • Dr Rick Jolly is a retired Royal Navy medical officer. His diary of the Falklands field hospital, The Red and Green Life Machine, has just been expanded and republished and is available through www.redandgreen.co.uk

    In full due to respect

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/07/01/do0107.xml
     
  2. Er sorry Wrong.
    Brit Forces NEED dedicate Heli medivac, support for troops in battle.
    I do think that someone has made a political reply for whatever reason.
    john
     
  3. John mate I think you have missed the drift of the article...which is very politely suggesting that the 'Surgeon General' is too busy deep throating Des Browne to care about his real responsibilities.
     
  4. Surprise, surprise, a sentence taken out of context by the press and hyped-up.

    The original statement by Gen Lillywhite went something like:

    Source: http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/DefencePolicyAndBusiness/SurgeonGeneralRespondsToConcernsOverAfghanistanMedicalTreatment.htm

    Rick Jolly may have done well in the Falklands, but he now has a book to sell.

    Edited to add:

    If I remember correctly there were exactly zero dedicated casevac helicopters in the Falklands. That didn't stop those there were being used for casevac purposes when necessary.
     
  5. Wasn't there a fair bit of triage at the RAPs that helped out the hospitals to achieve their 580 to 3 survival ratio?

    They didn't send who they didn't think would make it?

    Not belittling the Field Hospitals immense tasks and superb work, but I think the WHOLE medical chain was responsible for such low death rates (after treatment).

    The 160 burns casualties in 2 hours, didn't arrive in any order. The medics on the spot, would have triaged and treated at the beachside.

    I think there were some Wessex's allocated to the casevac, not sure about the FAA helicoptors, but due to the shortage of whirly birds they all had to do what ever job came in.

    There definitily wasn't as many Chinooks as Afganistan has!!!
     
  6. Actually, I have just checked out the above link and it looks like sales of the book will be supporting Combat Stress.

    I have meet Rick Jolly on several occasions and have always been impressed by him. I read the book many, many years ago and am glad to see it back in print, I will be buying a copy!

    I agree with Jolly over the helicopters. Common sense says that even if the medics have access to other helicopters, these must first be tasked and then detoured to the hospital to pick them up. Surely this wastes time. I am sure that dedicated ambulance helicopters make sense.

    If you had an accident in London, would you accept as ok a policy that instead of having dedicated ambulances the NHS had an agreement with local passing taxis/white vans to load up medics and go to the scene of the accident, or would you prefer a proper ambulance?
     
  7. He is supporting Combat Stress. It's a great charity and all credit to him for doing that. It doesn't necessarily make him right about the helicopter issue though.

    We live in a world of realistic budgets. Given the size of the Army, and the casualty levels we are facing in Afg/Iraq, it does not make sense to dedicate a number of helicopters (realistically at least 3 or 4) only to pick up casualties. When they are not being used in that role, they can be used to ferry troops and stores etc. When there is a need to pick up casualties, I am sure that everyone does what they can to make sure that they can be picked up asap and transported to hospital.

    In a perfect world, yes we would have sufficient helicopters so that some could be dedicated to casevac, but we would also have enough men to actually hold ground, body armour that was both light and effective, constant CAS - the list goes on.

    What does an ambulance offer me over a white van with a medical team in the back and a couple of bags full of surgical supplies?
     
  8. I am all for realpolitik, however:-

    1.Would your view change if you were the Para in the minefield or similar?

    2. Transit time.(Golden Hour? ha, ha bloody ha)

    You are just wrong. One of the major factors in the morale stakes is a belief that when you cop your packet there is a dedicated system that GAF. Notwithstanding the excellent phsyiological care that appears to be received once in the system, the entire effort, to an outsider, appears to be fragmented. Perhaps if there were fewer worthies writing reports... Sorry, I just can't be arrsed to write a disertation.
     
  9. The issue of helicopters in the 'Stan is an emotive issue - I came back from there in April and managing the limited resources available then was one of the challenges that HQ HTF contended with on a daily basis. The bottom line is there are either more there now or more on the way. Going on to the casevac issue, there were helicopters set aside for the IRTs and yes they were used for other things - but only very rarely as far as I am aware and only after risk assessment had been conducted. The only thing that I would change therefore is the fact that there should be helos with a winch capability to extract cases from minefields as cited in previous posts. Mines are a big threat in theatre and certainly were becoming increasingly so as I was leaving - we had something like 10 mine-related casualties in one day just before we left.
     
  10. Huh? How about the racks to fit a strecher into? Hooks to hang saline bags, plasma....? various things that go beep and help the paramedic know if you're still alive? a fitted drugs cabinet...? Or shall I just sling your body into the back of a white van and let it roll around.....?

    And as for "Oh yes....We can have Heli's for casevac but when they're not picking up cas they can ferry troops and supplies around" Really? just think that one through s-l-o-w-l-y. You really think that's going to work? Of course it will, the Heli can just dump it's load in the middle of a field and f**K off.
     
  11. PassingBells -"We live in a world of realistic budgets". Sounds like something an accountant might say, and accountants don't win wars.

    We live in a world of realistic wars. So realistic that they are actually 100% "real". Realistic budgets would help. From a realistic Treasury.
    Implicit in your statement is the need to tailor the war to the present budget. It's probably better trying to tailor the budget to the present war.

    I trust Dr Jolly.
     
  12. Armchair_jihad says

    John mate I think you have missed the drift of the article...which is very politely suggesting that the 'Surgeon General' is too busy deep throating Des Browne to care about his real responsibilities

    I agree, when are we finaly going to get some people at the top, who are interested in the job at hand and not pondering to the Governmeant, looking a nice number after they retire from the forces.
     
  13. Lanky says

    If you had an accident in London, would you accept as ok a policy that instead of having dedicated ambulances the NHS had an agreement with local passing taxis/white vans to load up medics and go to the scene of the accident, or would you prefer a proper ambulance?

    Yes in a perfect world a proper Ambulance, however at the minute, beggers cannot be choosers and due to this Governments treatment of the Forces, (budget etc) looks like we are the beggers.
    Personaly if i was lying in the dust with a serious injury, i would appreciate the first lift out of there.
    We slag of the spams quite a bit, however at least they know, they have the logistics to get them in and out when needed.
     
  14. but isn't this an example where we are so used to making do, but surely now is the time to demand better treatment. I guess that most of the public probably believe that there are dedicated helicopters already.

    We are not talking big bucks, buy them commercially if we have to. See if the Americans have any surplus we could buy/hire/beg etc.
     

  15. Lanky, im not disagreeing with you, the problem is, WHO is going to demand them. Its up to the spineless feckers at the top, not joe grunt on the ground.
    We used civvy choppers to get about the Falklands in 1992, done the job. I called them in only once for a casevac and all went well, we certainly were glad to see them and it no doubt saved a life.