Ivan the Not So Terrible!

#1
Was a time when the Russian Bear lumbered around Europe trying to scare the shit out of folk. No longer. The poor thing now should be referred to the R.S.P.C.A. Read this and see if you agree.

Tories, Labour and the EU Gestapo have decided to gang up and try and impose sanctions on Russia — which has committed the dastardly crime of protecting its own citizens.

Tweedledum Tory leader David Cameron has called for EU leaders meeting today to impose ‘tough sanctions’ on Russia for intervening in the conflict in Georgia to protect its citizens.

In this he has been echoed by TweedleDee Labour leader Gordon Brown who said that: “In the light of Russian actions, the EU should review — root and branch — our relationship with Russia, whose unilateral action in recognising the independence of Georgia’s two breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia was dangerous and unacceptable.”

The western media has whipped up condemnation of Russia for intervening militarily in Georgia following the outbreak of fighting between Ossetian separatists and the Georgian state. The rest of the EU has blindly followed suit, without once giving consideration to the facts, which are as follows:

- South Ossetia, which is 80% Russian, broke away from Georgia in the 1991-1992 war. In a 2006 South Ossetian independence referendum, held by the secessionist government, full independence was supported by 99% of the voters.

- Restoring South Ossetia and Abkhazia (a region with a similar separatist movement) to Georgian control has been a goal of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili.

- The current crisis escalated in August when intense fighting began between Georgian troops and the forces of South Ossetia. On 2 August, large numbers of South Ossetians started to flee into Russia, and

- Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warned that Russia would intervene if conflict erupted.

- On 7 August, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili vowed to restore control by force over what he called the ‘criminal regime’ in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

- During the night and early morning of 8 August, Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of separatist Republic of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali, thus breaking the terms of the 1992 ceasefire and crossing into the security zone established therein.

- Ten Russian peacekeepers were killed during the attack. The heavy shelling, which included Georgian rockets being fired into South Ossetia left parts of the capital city in ruins.

- Russia then finally responded in what they called the “defence of South Ossetians against a genocide by Georgian forces,” saying that some 2,000 Russian citizens had been killed in the shelling of Tskhinvali by the Georgian army.

- At Russia’s request, the United Nations Security Council held consultations on 7 August at 11pm, followed by an open meeting at 1.15am, on 8 August, with Georgia attending. During consultations, Council members discussed a press statement that called for an end to hostilities. They were unable, however, to come to a consensus.

- In the morning, Georgia announced that it had surrounded the city and captured eight South Ossetian villages. An independent Georgian TV station announced that Georgian military took control of the capital city.

- In the face of UN inaction, the murder of thousands of its citizens and the blatant aggression by the Georgian army, the Russians finally intervened, sending troops into South Ossetia.

- A second front was opened by the military of the Georgia’s separatist Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists.

- On August 11, Russia ruled out peace talks with Georgia until the latter withdrew from South Ossetia and signed a legally binding pact renouncing the use of force against South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

- On August 12, happy that Russian forces had secured the safety of their citizens, that country’s President ordered an end to military operations in Georgia. Later the same day, the Russian president Medvedev approved a six-point peace plan brokered by President-in-Office of the European Union, Nicolas Sarkozy, in Moscow; both sides were to sign it by the 17th.

- On 23 August, Russia declared the withdrawal of its forces to lines it asserted fulfilled the six points: into Abkhazia, South Ossetia, and the ’security corridor’ around South Ossetia. The bulk of its forces left Georgian soil altogether.

Now, the EU, Brown and Cameron wish to impose sanctions on Russia, when the facts clearly show that all it was doing was protecting its own citizens.

A parallel might be the EU declaring sanctions on Britain for protecting its citizens in the Falklands War!
 
#2
Yay.. go Russian Propaganda... go!
 
#3
Not so, ghost_us, just merely the way it is.
By the way, allow me to slightly modify your signature. Here goes.

Across the pond, where the deer and antelope play... during the brief periods when they are not being "hunn-ed" by those Good ol' Boys from the National Rifle Association!

What DID happen to your Passenger Pigeons, by the way?
 
#4
Do you work for Pravda?
 
#5
deSTABlised said:
Do you work for Pravda?
Judging by the rest of the crap he's posted he works for cnuts are us.
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#6
Are North and South Ossetia two regions, or are they an ex-country?
 
#7
Tories, Labour and the EU Gestapo have decided to gang up and try and impose sanctions on Russia — which has committed the dastardly crime of protecting its own citizens
hahah, is that why Ivan's sitting outside SO and Abkahzia...on Georgian territory?...is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....it's the same game they always play, buffer zone's between the outside World and mother Russia, the Russian's don't really care about those who are not ethnic slavic Russian's, they are just the convenient tool to further the goal.
 
#8
Russia has been shit stirring and Georgia walked into the trap.
the idea that north and south ossetia would be allowed to be independent is a joke.
an autonomous region of the Russian federation = you can do what you like as long as you obey Moscow otherwise we will bomb you flat. :roll:
 

Biped

LE
Book Reviewer
#9
Hate to say this chaps, but Georgia and Ossetia have been part of Russia proper for over 200 years. It's only since the breakup of the Soviet Union that they actually ceded themselves from the 'mother' country.

Russia has more of a claim to both North/South Ossetia AND Georgia than the world might admit.
 
#10
Biped said:
Are North and South Ossetia two regions, or are they an ex-country?
It's not that simple, I'm afraid...

Ossetians are descendants of ancient Alans, Scythian and Sarmats. Their language is of Iranian group. They inhabited their lands from, well, the times of ancient Alans, really... There was time in history when Osetians dominated Iberia, one of Georgian states... In the middle of the 6-th century Byzantine Emperor put an Osetian in charge of Ksany, another Georgian province... At the time Georgian territories were controlled by Byzantia, Persia and Arabs.

Georgia as an independent all in one state was formed in the 11 cen. and flourished between 12 and 13 cen.-s.
In 13 cen. Georgian kingdom was divided onto few independent Georgian kingdoms that suffered from Tatar-Mongols. The start of major animosities between Georgians and Osetians dates back to 13 century.

Both Osetia and Georgian kingdoms suffered greatly from the wars with Iran, Turkey and other Caucasian nations. On few occasions Russia sent its army to help Georgians and Osetians.

In 1782 Georgian ruling class issued a decree discriminating Osetian people and prohibiting marriages between Georgians and Osetians.

In the 18 cen. Osetian ruling elite appealed to the Russian Empress to admit Osetia into Russian Empire. Their plea was granted.

In 1782 Georgian (Kartlo-Kahetian, since Georgia at the time consisted of few kingdoms) king asked Russia for protection (Georgievsky pact).
In 1795 Persian Shah Aga Khan Mohammed, dissatisfied that Irakly II failed to appear at his coronation and so expressed its independence, summed troops to Tbilisi. They rounded up civilian (80 000) and slaughtered them. In Tbilisi an image of Virgin Mary was brought to the bridge over the Kourou, where more than three thousand men were gathered and told to undress. Shah then ordered everyone to come to St. Mary and desecrate her image. Those who refused were beheaded and thrown into the river. Georgians who tried to flee Georgia were caught and massacred. Many Georgians loyal to Shah took part in the massacres. Georgian king Irakley wrote letters to Catherine II begging her to save Georgia. Three detachments of Russian troops (militia generals Burnasheva, Gudovicha, Suhotneva), located in the Caucasus, and an Ossetian detachment of 500 soldiers came to the aid of Georgia. In Petersburg, it was decided to urgently equip the ten thousandth army and send it to Tiflis. Mohammed Aga Khan retreated...
In 1797 Mohammed Aga Khan once again went on Tiflisu. Only his death saved the city.

In 1801 Russia fulfilled the request of Georgian king George XII and took Georgia into Russian Empire.

Since then both Osetia and Georgian provinces were pretty much run by their own ruling elites.

After the revolution, Georgian provinces were put together to form a republic of Georgia. In 1922 Osetia was divided (by Stalin) into two parts: N.Osetia was left in Russia, and S.Osetia was given to Georgia.
 
#11
petergriffen said:
is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....l.
1. Abkhasia for the time being is not expressing the desire to become part of Russia, although it did in the past...

2. S.Ossetia wanted to remain in Russia since 1992. Or following the wishes of majority of the population is not what democracy stands for?
 
#13
Thank you for the explanation/background Domovoy

Whilst I think Russia failed to exhaust peaceful resolution of the situation, and the Georgians were hugely provocative, it looks like there's a lot more to this issue that has been publicly reported.

Send us more bears.
 
#14
Another thread started by the FSB/SVR - we must have become their Western website of choice. Maybe we should start a "Cold War Propaganda re-enactment Society"?

Here are the golden rules if you want to debate with Russians.

1. Always answer a question with a question.
2. Never apologise.
3. Never concede anything.
4. Never compromise.
5. If things get too tough to explain go off at a tangent.

You should now be able to converse with our SVR/FSB friends on ARRSE without too much trouble.

I thank you.
 
#15
Domovoy said:
petergriffen said:
is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....l.
1. Abkhasia for the time being is not expressing the desire to become part of Russia, although it did in the past...

2. S.Ossetia wanted to remain in Russia since 1992. Or following the wishes of majority of the population is not what democracy stands for?
is that the version of democracy as practiced in Chechnya??

so terribly confusing with the peace loving people of the soviet socialist republic, .... sorry, keep forgeting (2008 - not 1968 you fool!!)
 
#16
Domovoy said:
Biped said:
Are North and South Ossetia two regions, or are they an ex-country?
It's not that simple, I'm afraid...

Ossetians are descendants of ancient Alans, Scythian and Sarmats. Their language is of Iranian group. They inhabited their lands from, well, the times of ancient Alans, really... There was time in history when Osetians dominated Iberia, one of Georgian states... In the middle of the 6-th century Byzantine Emperor put an Osetian in charge of Ksany, another Georgian province... At the time Georgian territories were controlled by Byzantia, Persia and Arabs.

Georgia as an independent all in one state was formed in the 11 cen. and flourished between 12 and 13 cen.-s.
In 13 cen. Georgian kingdom was divided onto few independent Georgian kingdoms that suffered from Tatar-Mongols. The start of major animosities between Georgians and Osetians dates back to 13 century.

Both Osetia and Georgian kingdoms suffered greatly from the wars with Iran, Turkey and other Caucasian nations. On few occasions Russia sent its army to help Georgians and Osetians.

In 1782 Georgian ruling class issued a decree discriminating Osetian people and prohibiting marriages between Georgians and Osetians.

In the 18 cen. Osetian ruling elite appealed to the Russian Empress to admit Osetia into Russian Empire. Their plea was granted.

In 1782 Georgian (Kartlo-Kahetian, since Georgia at the time consisted of few kingdoms) king asked Russia for protection (Georgievsky pact).
In 1795 Persian Shah Aga Khan Mohammed, dissatisfied that Irakly II failed to appear at his coronation and so expressed its independence, summed troops to Tbilisi. They rounded up civilian (80 000) and slaughtered them. In Tbilisi an image of Virgin Mary was brought to the bridge over the Kourou, where more than three thousand men were gathered and told to undress. Shah then ordered everyone to come to St. Mary and desecrate her image. Those who refused were beheaded and thrown into the river. Georgians who tried to flee Georgia were caught and massacred. Many Georgians loyal to Shah took part in the massacres. Georgian king Irakley wrote letters to Catherine II begging her to save Georgia. Three detachments of Russian troops (militia generals Burnasheva, Gudovicha, Suhotneva), located in the Caucasus, and an Ossetian detachment of 500 soldiers came to the aid of Georgia. In Petersburg, it was decided to urgently equip the ten thousandth army and send it to Tiflis. Mohammed Aga Khan retreated...
In 1797 Mohammed Aga Khan once again went on Tiflisu. Only his death saved the city.

In 1801 Russia fulfilled the request of Georgian king George XII and took Georgia into Russian Empire.

Since then both Osetia and Georgian provinces were pretty much run by their own ruling elites.

After the revolution, Georgian provinces were put together to form a republic of Georgia. In 1922 Osetia was divided (by Stalin) into two parts: N.Osetia was left in Russia, and S.Osetia was given to Georgia.
Thanks for the quick potted history Domovoy, as usual the situation is a little more complicated than it at first appears.

I think that Logradegas appears to have OD'ed on propaganda pills. :lol:
 
#17
Plastic Yank said:
Domovoy said:
petergriffen said:
is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....l.
1. Abkhasia for the time being is not expressing the desire to become part of Russia, although it did in the past...

2. S.Ossetia wanted to remain in Russia since 1992. Or following the wishes of majority of the population is not what democracy stands for?
is that the version of democracy as practiced in Chechnya??

so terribly confusing with the peace loving people of the soviet socialist republic, .... sorry, keep forgeting (2008 - not 1968 you fool!!)
It's confusing because you don't have much of a clue about parts of the world NATO/US is now advancing into. You take propaganda for knowledge and get surprised the reality doesn't fit your assumptions.

"Chechnya had its independence (after the first war) and was overran by Al-Q. whom the West referred to as "freedom fighters" omitting to add they were from all over the Muslim world. What "freedom" they were fighting for -- your guess.
Apart from separatist groups (every country in the world has them, just look at Spain, UK, USA...) Chechnya, Ingushetya, etc. are NOT pushing for independence. Right now they are happy with their semi-independent status where they get finances from Moscow and are left to run themselves for as long as they don't cause problems requiring federal interference. In a nutshell: they decide what clan is in power and prefer to stay under protection of the devil they know -- Russia." http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=102942/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=2040.html

US can support separatists in those regions and get its way, but it will lead to even more trouble.
 
#18
I don't ever recall the Chechens being called anything but "the Chechens". Certainly not (AFAIK) in the British press.

If you'd used the Afghan Mujahidin you might have a point.
 
#19
Domovoy said:
Plastic Yank said:
Domovoy said:
petergriffen said:
is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....l.
1. Abkhasia for the time being is not expressing the desire to become part of Russia, although it did in the past...

2. S.Ossetia wanted to remain in Russia since 1992. Or following the wishes of majority of the population is not what democracy stands for?
is that the version of democracy as practiced in Chechnya??

so terribly confusing with the peace loving people of the soviet socialist republic, .... sorry, keep forgeting (2008 - not 1968 you fool!!)
It's confusing because you don't have much of a clue about parts of the world NATO/US is now advancing into. You take propaganda for knowledge and get surprised the reality doesn't fit your assumptions.

"Chechnya had its independence (after the first war) and was overran by Al-Q. whom the West referred to as "freedom fighters" omitting to add they were from all over the Muslim world. What "freedom" they were fighting for -- your guess.
Apart from separatist groups (every country in the world has them, just look at Spain, UK, USA...) Chechnya, Ingushetya, etc. are NOT pushing for independence. Right now they are happy with their semi-independent status where they get finances from Moscow and are left to run themselves for as long as they don't cause problems requiring federal interference. In a nutshell: they decide what clan is in power and prefer to stay under protection of the devil they know -- Russia." http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=102942/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=2040.html

US can support separatists in those regions and get its way, but it will lead to even more trouble.
Christ, this must be your full time job!!!

educate please oh fount of all (totally and complete unbiased) knowledge! Fairly certain that the comment above will be news to the "happy semi-independent" nutters you seem to be talking about.
 
#20
Plastic Yank said:
Domovoy said:
Plastic Yank said:
Domovoy said:
petergriffen said:
is that why after becoming "independent" Russia is now going to incorporate them into the Sov....Russian federation?....l.
1. Abkhasia for the time being is not expressing the desire to become part of Russia, although it did in the past...

2. S.Ossetia wanted to remain in Russia since 1992. Or following the wishes of majority of the population is not what democracy stands for?
is that the version of democracy as practiced in Chechnya??

so terribly confusing with the peace loving people of the soviet socialist republic, .... sorry, keep forgeting (2008 - not 1968 you fool!!)
It's confusing because you don't have much of a clue about parts of the world NATO/US is now advancing into. You take propaganda for knowledge and get surprised the reality doesn't fit your assumptions.

"Chechnya had its independence (after the first war) and was overran by Al-Q. whom the West referred to as "freedom fighters" omitting to add they were from all over the Muslim world. What "freedom" they were fighting for -- your guess.
Apart from separatist groups (every country in the world has them, just look at Spain, UK, USA...) Chechnya, Ingushetya, etc. are NOT pushing for independence. Right now they are happy with their semi-independent status where they get finances from Moscow and are left to run themselves for as long as they don't cause problems requiring federal interference. In a nutshell: they decide what clan is in power and prefer to stay under protection of the devil they know -- Russia." http://www.arrse.co.uk/cpgn2/Forums/viewtopic/t=102942/postdays=0/postorder=asc/start=2040.html

US can support separatists in those regions and get its way, but it will lead to even more trouble.
Christ, this must be your full time job!!!

educate please oh fount of all (totally and complete unbiased) knowledge! Fairly certain that the comment above will be news to the "happy semi-independent" nutters you seem to be talking about.
My comment "about the happy semi-independent nutters" was of course a simplification, never the less it is a lot broader than the usual "small Caucasian nations trampled by Russian boot strive for independence and it's our duty to bring them freedom and democracy!"

PS
A bit of good news:
My full time job resumes tomorrow, so I will not pester you with my comments as much as I did in a last few weeks.
 

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