Its Pay Back Time ?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by tomahawk6, Jun 7, 2005.

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  1. It's about bloody time we got something back. Dont get me wrong. I love the yanks, theyr'e grreeeeat, but it just seems that the 'special relationship' was unidirectional.

    Lets see if george will return the favour(s)
  2. I would like to see the US pick up the tab for UK operations in Iraq.
    Also I think the US should sign on for the removal of Mugabe. The man is running that once fine country into the ground. This might also send a message to the other thugs in the region to reform.
  3. Tomahawk - Serious question and not a snipe at US forces. Do you think you have the capability to remove Mugabe given your track record in other African states? (i.e. Somalia) Especially since Zimbabwe is a land locked country that would be a logisticians knightmare.
  4. Yes we do. Just remember Afghanistan, a remote land locked country and the US lacked formal bases. The US has access to bases in Africa which would make the effort alot easier than Afghanistan [logisitcally speaking].
  5. Serious Answer: Yes we could. Somalia is actually an advantage; because people like Mugabe will rely on that 'model' to expect the same outcome. Not the case. When OEF kicked and JTF Horn of Africa stood up, the Somalian crimelords were the first to loudly annouce that Al Qaeda no longer had any presence in Somalia. They could easily see the shift in attitude and mission the US presented.

    Will we invade? No. Why? We've expended some serious political capital and it will take the world, especially the UK, to publicly 'nudge' the USA into taking Mugabe down. Afghanistan was invaded with 100 SF Soldiers, 20 AF air controllers, a sabre squadron from the UK and another one from Australia. Less than 300 trigger-pullers took down a country that three other empires previously tried to conquer and occupy.

    The same thing can happen with Zimbabwe. Pity Executive Outcomes isn't still active; they would have been perfect for this job...
  6. You westerners really need to wake up and smell the coffee. If you had done a better job of preparing the ground in Iraq, even that could have been done more subltey then Afghanistan.

    I suspect that with so may powerful lobbyists on Capitol Hill representing expensive defense programs, the kinetic option was the only one to see any light of day.

    The paucity of thought into, what my instructors at Mons used to call
    " actions on", is evident in the obscene haste to justify all those expensive platforms.

    Several biographers have since testified that consideration of what to do after the shooting stopped, was actively discouraged. Look at the body-count now :cry:

    Remember we were trained by the KGB and the Stasi: subversion and intimidation go hand in hand with coersion.

    Effective subversion and intimidation can often dispense with the need for shock and awe. Bush Snr had the southern provinces in the palm of his hand years ago, all he did was to loose credibility big style amongst the target audience. < rather like the Brits failed to capitalise on the excellent work of a certain Mr Lawrence?? Similarly loosing face with a target audience with whom you are now desparate to gain traction and influence with.>

    First whisper, whisper and whisper, then talk quietly, and then carry a big stick

    However satisfying it may be at home, I would suggest on the international arena, it would be political suicide if either US or the UK were seen to be directly involved in this.

    Every aspiring islamist in Africa would see this as their chance to strike a blow. How many in East Africa have right of entry to UK??
  7. All the military force in the world is worth d*ck if the political will to use it is absent. Besides, as we have seen, we really can't trust the spams to do anything constructive after they've done the hi-tech war-fighting stuff. And their force protection strategies and inflexible doctrine (Oakley's and M4s instead of clean water and electricity) is the stuff of legend.

    No doubt the idea of creating another "buzzsaw" for the Jihadists to hurl themselves into in East Africa is no doubt making some neo-cons hard.

    The other problem is you can't tell Americans anything they don't want to know. I hope they've learnt something about nation-building, asymetrical warfare and counter-insurgency from Iraq, but somehow I doubt it. My ex-police and army "contract security consultant" buddies in theatre are less than hopeful anyway.

    And until about two years ago I was the most pro-American person you could possibly hope to meet.

  8. Dont forget to mention the thousands of northern alliance soldiers that helped them mate. They paid the ultimate price for their freedom. We just helped them and made the fight a little bit more one sided :D
  9. I'm sure uncle sam offering south africa a special relationship might help
    to get them to do the right thing .Surely zim going tits up is causing them problems?
  10. Bush's plan is to give everyone in Africa a tax cut.
  11. Quite right, and my apologies for forgetting that. The Northern Alliance damn-sure stepped up when needed. I should have caveated the remark better...
  12. OK, now we do NOT have the political will to use military force???

    Lend-Lease, Marshall Plan, MacArthur Plan, Truman Doctrine. Off hand, I'd say we have a lot more experience in building, and re-building, nations than most other countries.

    The bulk of capitol expenditure in Iraq right now is on nation-building. The infrastructure in many cases is being built for the first time. That's water, electricity, treatment, etc.


    How about an example of that?? I work with the US military on a daily basis; and the troops are soaking up any information they can get on operations in Iraq, Afghanistan, and other garden spots. If you've got real information they could use to make things better, I'll personally place it their hands.

    Would those 'buddies' be the ones who are receiving US money for their efforts?

  13. That was then and this is now. The ideological shine came off of US foreign policy in the late 60's, for good or for ill. The Pax Americana requires more than putting capital investment into infrastructure, and more than one country at a time. My politics comment was made advisedly; do you not agree that modern politicians have so many bites of the military intervention cherry nowadays? The US has spent it's blood & treasure allowance in The Senate for a few years yet, I suspect.

    I'll not waste any further breath, Niall Ferguson's Collossus argument has won me over, check it out.

  14. Certainly have to agree here thet the americans have forgotten, more than many other countries have learned, about rebuilding weak and shattered states.