Discussion in 'Gunners' started by THE_EDITOR, Oct 18, 2006.

Welcome to the Army Rumour Service, ARRSE

The UK's largest and busiest UNofficial military website.

The heart of the site is the forum area, including:

  1. I am trying to find out why the Gunners are so interested in changing Gun Regiments to ISTAR Regiments. Does this mean that the Royal Regiment would be in the best position to provide all ISTAR capability?
  2. The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
  3. I don't think that RA are going to re-role all of the regts to ISTAR.
  4. The key driver behind the Gunners wishing to maintain a seek interest in ISTAR is that we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen (or ability to get them) - keeping the "sensor-to-shooter" link as short as possible.

    I do not think that the Gunners would want to take on the recce role, but I dispute the onewhoknows' assertion that the RAC have either the numbers or the ability to prosecute a close nevermind deep battle. Nor do I think that the RAC could take on 4/73 Bty's role or the complexities of UAVs.

    For once in the Army's life it might be useful to put aside regimental loyalties and consider what will happen if we do not put up a combined Army view on the future of ISTAR - yes the RAF will want all our UAVs!
  5. I dispute the line "we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen" as this is complete B. At the very sub tactical level for a % of the time yes. However most targeting is done to achieve effect before the close battle is engaged - certainly in modern operations. Most effect (again on modern operations) is achieved by soft attack - ie though focused military activity, arrest ops, media, PSYOPS et al, or by focused pinpoint attacks (Arty is an area wpn). Targeting must therefore be controlled at a higher level and not by those who just drop heavy metal.

    I agree there needs to be one voice across the Army - but I have never heard it as ISTAR seems to be the new buzz word that everyone want a part of and it is being used to protect Regiments first and provide capability second. The RAF approach is capability first, that is why we are losing and will lose unless we look at what ISTAR is there for and what the effects are that need to be achieved.
  6. The_Duke

    The_Duke LE Moderator

    In all of your posts on this subject you advocate capability first, Regimental interests long as the Regiments that lead are RAC.

    Bit of a contradiction there!
  7. No I have suggested that the RAC are in the best position to lead as we think from an effect perspective not a regimental perspective. Hence why the RECCE Bde was given the lead for ISTAR in LAND.
  8. So what distances are sub-tactical?

    Which Ops are those? Telic then

    Telic again then

    Targeting should be and is controlled by those who drop and throw heavy metal (who has better knowledge of what it does and can do) but it is only one arm of an integrated Joint Effects strategy
  9. Coming from a service with a loose grasp of the deep battle, I would be v interested to hear the genesis of the RAC's deep strike capability.

    I would be particularly interested to hear about their:

    - sustainability in the deep role in relation to other platforms
    - ability to inflict attrition on adversary ports, airfields, telecommunications, petrochemicals, air defence systems and machinery of government
    - Ability to shatter the morale of an adversary civilian population 100s of km behind the FEBA
    - I would be fascinated to hear about the RACs deep ISTAR capability in contingency operations such as peace support, NEO and hostage rescue?

    With the RAF's embedded contribution to the JHC, some might suggest we are better placed grasp the needs of contemporary ISTAR operations
  10. One of the biggest issues with the Army is possession of train sets, I love the regimentsal system but it does play havoc with practicallity

    There is a very strong arguement that all ISTAR assets should run form one capbadge but its a little impractical due to roles, as DS mentioned, UAVs (wheter they work or not) are an important part of ISTAR, as are other RA assests (SoundRanging, Radar, OPs) and don't forget we have dedicated Targeting staff (or targeteers if you want to sound gay) that can (well at least in theory) work together

    Now I'm not suggesting the RA took over recce or G2 (god forbid) but if push came to shove I feel it would be a better fit that RAC taking over on mass. A plan coulg be to enhance Arty Int cells and create OP Regt's to cover both OP and recce, in fact train the FOOs as FACs and kill another bird, and your off, but I can't see it happening really

    BTW ISTAR is not that new, we used to call it RISTA
  11. First Crab I've heard call it ISTAR and not ISR. 8O
  12. I am not advocating the RAC doing all ISTAR just that the RECCE Bde has always been the focus for its coordination within the LAND environment. I think Ad has a good grasp as the RAF know how to target properly and how to achieve effect at the tactical level and above. ISTAR is an incorrect term and it shouild be ISR as TA is merely a requirement placed on the I piece.

    Sub tactical is there for those who gaze at the length of their weapon and not the effect you are trying to achieve!

    Most IS(TA)R assets that achieve the majority collection effect in the modern battlespace are not owned by the Royal Regiment as most targeting activity does not result in heavy metal - these are simple facts.

  13. Bollocks
  14. Call a surgeon my sides are splitting

    That was all Ads post was about.

    Which translates to we have more reach than any of you.

    AHHH you mean the Comprehensive approach to effects based operations ensuring that the joint action cell uses the JEM to fuse both the Kinetic and Non-Kinetic to achieve the decisive effect.

    Apart from Recce what else do you bring to the party?

    The original point to the thread was about gun Regts being changed to STA regts (as the Gunners don't really do the I & R and ISTAR is a term favoured around the bazaars by people who think they understand it). The STA kit we have has been on permanent Ops since 03 which is not so much fun when you only have 1 UAV Regt and 1 STA Regt.
  15. What a narrow minded view you have.

    I fail to see where your going, you have the kit


    You have the numbers

    What? ISTAR trained and with experience of intergrating joint effects

    Your able to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle

    Derrr of course you can, thats because you either have a FOO forward with the Sqns, a Battery Commander in TAC and a Fire Planning Cell with a Joint Effects Coordinator in Main.

    ISTAR is massive and carried out at all levels, however the futher you want to look invariably the bigger the organisation needed to make it work.

    The RA are currently in a position to fuse it all together:
    we have the Kit

    From UAV's Phoenix, Desert Hawk, to Ground Patrols 473 Bty / HAC.

    We have the numbers:

    1 Arty Bde

    We Know how to prosecute the close and deep battles.
    We have being doing it for years old boy and with the advent and expansion of MLRS and other ISTAR collection assets we will soon be supporting and destroying even further.

    Oh and by the way i have read your other thread entitled
    "Armoured RECCE - the Only ISTAR Solution"

    I see you also got a lot of support there as well.