ISTAR

#1
I am trying to find out why the Gunners are so interested in changing Gun Regiments to ISTAR Regiments. Does this mean that the Royal Regiment would be in the best position to provide all ISTAR capability?
 
#2
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
 
#3
THE_EDITOR said:
I am trying to find out why the Gunners are so interested in changing Gun Regiments to ISTAR Regiments. Does this mean that the Royal Regiment would be in the best position to provide all ISTAR capability?
I don't think that RA are going to re-role all of the regts to ISTAR.
 
#4
The key driver behind the Gunners wishing to maintain a seek interest in ISTAR is that we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen (or ability to get them) - keeping the "sensor-to-shooter" link as short as possible.

I do not think that the Gunners would want to take on the recce role, but I dispute the onewhoknows' assertion that the RAC have either the numbers or the ability to prosecute a close nevermind deep battle. Nor do I think that the RAC could take on 4/73 Bty's role or the complexities of UAVs.

For once in the Army's life it might be useful to put aside regimental loyalties and consider what will happen if we do not put up a combined Army view on the future of ISTAR - yes the RAF will want all our UAVs!
 
#5
Drop_Short said:
The key driver behind the Gunners wishing to maintain a seek interest in ISTAR is that we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen (or ability to get them) - keeping the "sensor-to-shooter" link as short as possible.

I do not think that the Gunners would want to take on the recce role, but I dispute the onewhoknows' assertion that the RAC have either the numbers or the ability to prosecute a close nevermind deep battle. Nor do I think that the RAC could take on 4/73 Bty's role or the complexities of UAVs.

For once in the Army's life it might be useful to put aside regimental loyalties and consider what will happen if we do not put up a combined Army view on the future of ISTAR - yes the RAF will want all our UAVs!
I dispute the line "we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen" as this is complete B. At the very sub tactical level for a % of the time yes. However most targeting is done to achieve effect before the close battle is engaged - certainly in modern operations. Most effect (again on modern operations) is achieved by soft attack - ie though focused military activity, arrest ops, media, PSYOPS et al, or by focused pinpoint attacks (Arty is an area wpn). Targeting must therefore be controlled at a higher level and not by those who just drop heavy metal.

I agree there needs to be one voice across the Army - but I have never heard it as ISTAR seems to be the new buzz word that everyone want a part of and it is being used to protect Regiments first and provide capability second. The RAF approach is capability first, that is why we are losing and will lose unless we look at what ISTAR is there for and what the effects are that need to be achieved.
 

The_Duke

LE
Moderator
#6
theonewhoknows said:
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
In all of your posts on this subject you advocate capability first, Regimental interests second....as long as the Regiments that lead are RAC.

Bit of a contradiction there!
 
#7
No I have suggested that the RAC are in the best position to lead as we think from an effect perspective not a regimental perspective. Hence why the RECCE Bde was given the lead for ISTAR in LAND.
 
#8
theonewhoknows said:
I dispute the line "we have the weapons to hit whatever is seen" as this is complete B. At the very sub tactical level for a % of the time yes.
So what distances are sub-tactical?

theonewhoknows said:
However most targeting is done to achieve effect before the close battle is engaged - certainly in modern operations.
Which Ops are those? Telic then


theonewhoknows said:
Most effect (again on modern operations) is achieved by soft attack - ie though focused military activity, arrest ops, media, PSYOPS et al, or by focused pinpoint attacks (Arty is an area wpn).
Telic again then

theonewhoknows said:
Targeting must therefore be controlled at a higher level and not by those who just drop heavy metal.
Targeting should be and is controlled by those who drop and throw heavy metal (who has better knowledge of what it does and can do) but it is only one arm of an integrated Joint Effects strategy
 
#9
theonewhoknows said:
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
Coming from a service with a loose grasp of the deep battle, I would be v interested to hear the genesis of the RAC's deep strike capability.

I would be particularly interested to hear about their:

- sustainability in the deep role in relation to other platforms
- ability to inflict attrition on adversary ports, airfields, telecommunications, petrochemicals, air defence systems and machinery of government
- Ability to shatter the morale of an adversary civilian population 100s of km behind the FEBA
- I would be fascinated to hear about the RACs deep ISTAR capability in contingency operations such as peace support, NEO and hostage rescue?

With the RAF's embedded contribution to the JHC, some might suggest we are better placed grasp the needs of contemporary ISTAR operations
 
#10
One of the biggest issues with the Army is possession of train sets, I love the regimentsal system but it does play havoc with practicallity

There is a very strong arguement that all ISTAR assets should run form one capbadge but its a little impractical due to roles, as DS mentioned, UAVs (wheter they work or not) are an important part of ISTAR, as are other RA assests (SoundRanging, Radar, OPs) and don't forget we have dedicated Targeting staff (or targeteers if you want to sound gay) that can (well at least in theory) work together

Now I'm not suggesting the RA took over recce or G2 (god forbid) but if push came to shove I feel it would be a better fit that RAC taking over on mass. A plan coulg be to enhance Arty Int cells and create OP Regt's to cover both OP and recce, in fact train the FOOs as FACs and kill another bird, and your off, but I can't see it happening really

BTW ISTAR is not that new, we used to call it RISTA
 
#11
adastra said:
With the RAF's embedded contribution to the JHC, some might suggest we are better placed grasp the needs of contemporary ISTAR operations
First Crab I've heard call it ISTAR and not ISR. 8O
 
#12
Snakes_R_Us said:
adastra said:
With the RAF's embedded contribution to the JHC, some might suggest we are better placed grasp the needs of contemporary ISTAR operations
First Crab I've heard call it ISTAR and not ISR. 8O
I am not advocating the RAC doing all ISTAR just that the RECCE Bde has always been the focus for its coordination within the LAND environment. I think Ad has a good grasp as the RAF know how to target properly and how to achieve effect at the tactical level and above. ISTAR is an incorrect term and it shouild be ISR as TA is merely a requirement placed on the I piece.

Sub tactical is there for those who gaze at the length of their weapon and not the effect you are trying to achieve!

Most IS(TA)R assets that achieve the majority collection effect in the modern battlespace are not owned by the Royal Regiment as most targeting activity does not result in heavy metal - these are simple facts.

:)
 
#13
theonewhoknows said:
Snakes_R_Us said:
adastra said:
With the RAF's embedded contribution to the JHC, some might suggest we are better placed grasp the needs of contemporary ISTAR operations
First Crab I've heard call it ISTAR and not ISR. 8O
I am not advocating the RAC doing all ISTAR just that the RECCE Bde has always been the focus for its coordination within the LAND environment. I think Ad has a good grasp as the RAF know how to target properly and how to achieve effect at the tactical level and above. ISTAR is an incorrect term and it shouild be ISR as TA is merely a requirement placed on the I piece.

Sub tactical is there for those who gaze at the length of their weapon and not the effect you are trying to achieve!

Most IS(TA)R assets that achieve the majority collection effect in the modern battlespace are not owned by the Royal Regiment as most targeting activity does not result in heavy metal - these are simple facts.

:)
Bollocks
 
#14
theonewhoknows said:
I think Ad has a good grasp as the RAF know how to target properly and how to achieve effect at the tactical level .
Call a surgeon my sides are splitting


theonewhoknows said:
Sub tactical is there for those who gaze at the length of their weapon and not the effect you are trying to achieve!
That was all Ads post was about.

adastra said:
- ability to inflict attrition on adversary ports, airfields, telecommunications, petrochemicals, air defence systems and machinery of government
- Ability to shatter the morale of an adversary civilian population 100s of km behind the FEBA
Which translates to we have more reach than any of you.



theonewhoknows said:
Most IS(TA)R assets that achieve the majority collection effect in the modern battlespace are not owned by the Royal Regiment as most targeting activity does not result in heavy metal - these are simple facts.
AHHH you mean the Comprehensive approach to effects based operations ensuring that the joint action cell uses the JEM to fuse both the Kinetic and Non-Kinetic to achieve the decisive effect.

Apart from Recce what else do you bring to the party?

The original point to the thread was about gun Regts being changed to STA regts (as the Gunners don't really do the I & R and ISTAR is a term favoured around the bazaars by people who think they understand it). The STA kit we have has been on permanent Ops since 03 which is not so much fun when you only have 1 UAV Regt and 1 STA Regt.
 
#15
theonewhoknows said:
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
What a narrow minded view you have.

I fail to see where your going, you have the kit

WHAT KIT?

You have the numbers

What? ISTAR trained and with experience of intergrating joint effects

Your able to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle

Derrr of course you can, thats because you either have a FOO forward with the Sqns, a Battery Commander in TAC and a Fire Planning Cell with a Joint Effects Coordinator in Main.

ISTAR is massive and carried out at all levels, however the futher you want to look invariably the bigger the organisation needed to make it work.

The RA are currently in a position to fuse it all together:
we have the Kit

From UAV's Phoenix, Desert Hawk, to Ground Patrols 473 Bty / HAC.

We have the numbers:

1 Arty Bde

We Know how to prosecute the close and deep battles.
We have being doing it for years old boy and with the advent and expansion of MLRS and other ISTAR collection assets we will soon be supporting and destroying even further.

Oh and by the way i have read your other thread entitled
"Armoured RECCE - the Only ISTAR Solution"

I see you also got a lot of support there as well.
 
#16
Gmonster said:
theonewhoknows said:
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
What a narrow minded view you have.

I fail to see where your going, you have the kit

WHAT KIT?

You have the numbers

What? ISTAR trained and with experience of intergrating joint effects

Your able to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle

Derrr of course you can, thats because you either have a FOO forward with the Sqns, a Battery Commander in TAC and a Fire Planning Cell with a Joint Effects Coordinator in Main.

ISTAR is massive and carried out at all levels, however the futher you want to look invariably the bigger the organisation needed to make it work.

The RA are currently in a position to fuse it all together
we have the Kit

From UAV's Phoenix, Desert Hawk, to Ground Patrols 473 Bty / HAC.

We have the numbers

1 Arty Bde

We Know how to prosecute the close and deep battles.
We have being doing it for years old boy and with the advent and expansion of MLRS and other ISTAR collection assets we will soon be supporting and destroying even further.

Oh and by the way i have read your other thread entitled
"Armoured RECCE - the Only ISTAR Solution"

I see you also got a lot of support there as well.
GM - wot Bollix

Integrated joint effects - when was the last time that you did a CDE properly ?? Talk to the RAF or RN ref targeting.

RA Have the kit - Px if it works is like looking through a drinking straw but the link is cr@p. Desert Hawk is great as a forward company look over the next hill divice and thats it. 473/HAC - Tab in once, see little spend weeks recovering.

Armoured RECCE can cover much more of the battlefield and achieve a better effect but even we are not in the same league as

ASTOR, PREDATOR, MR2, MX15, HUMINT

Fuse it all together - I thought that was the role of the green slime.

Numbers - there ate more gunners deployed in the infantry role than any Arty role

Ahem

:)
 
#17
theonewhoknows said:
Integrated joint effects - when was the last time that you did a CDE properly ??
Who are the qualified (qtm) Targeteers in theatre at present carrying out CDE for pre planned missions? All FOOs and OP ACKS have CDE trg on their respective cses.


theonewhoknows said:
Armoured RECCE can cover much more of the battlefield and achieve a better effect
And what effect is that?
 
#18
theonewhoknows said:
Gmonster said:
theonewhoknows said:
The only people in a position to do ISTAR properly on the modern battlefield are Armd RECCE. We have the kit, we have the numbers we know how to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle. ISTAR should be a RAC lead.
What a narrow minded view you have.

I fail to see where your going, you have the kit

WHAT KIT?

You have the numbers

What? ISTAR trained and with experience of intergrating joint effects

Your able to prosecute the close battle as well as the deep battle

Derrr of course you can, thats because you either have a FOO forward with the Sqns, a Battery Commander in TAC and a Fire Planning Cell with a Joint Effects Coordinator in Main.

ISTAR is massive and carried out at all levels, however the futher you want to look invariably the bigger the organisation needed to make it work.

The RA are currently in a position to fuse it all together
we have the Kit

From UAV's Phoenix, Desert Hawk, to Ground Patrols 473 Bty / HAC.

We have the numbers

1 Arty Bde

We Know how to prosecute the close and deep battles.
We have being doing it for years old boy and with the advent and expansion of MLRS and other ISTAR collection assets we will soon be supporting and destroying even further.

Oh and by the way i have read your other thread entitled
"Armoured RECCE - the Only ISTAR Solution"

I see you also got a lot of support there as well.
GM - wot Bollix

Integrated joint effects - when was the last time that you did a CDE properly ?? Talk to the RAF or RN ref targeting.

RA Have the kit - Px if it works is like looking through a drinking straw but the link is cr@p. Desert Hawk is great as a forward company look over the next hill divice and thats it. 473/HAC - Tab in once, see little spend weeks recovering.

Armoured RECCE can cover much more of the battlefield and achieve a better effect but even we are not in the same league as

ASTOR, PREDATOR, MR2, MX15, HUMINT

Fuse it all together - I thought that was the role of the green slime.

Numbers - there ate more gunners deployed in the infantry role than any Arty role

Ahem

:)
Why dont you read the thread before jumping in?

Fuse it all together i.e the kit not the info it provides.

Firstly as a targeting trade within the gunners i last did CDE modelling last week within a Bde and Div Targeting set. The team who were instructing us were a mixture of RAF/Army.

Yes you can cover the battlefield great, but i think you have missed the point about ISTAR, with all this ground your covering who from armoured recce is going to man and operate all this ISTAR kit then?

So our nations great UAV's are crap are they, methinks its better than nothing and you have to start somewhere.
Phx has given us operating procedures and collection procedures sure its had it teething problems but if it was that crap why is it being taken further.
If your so into ISTAR you will know whats in the pipeline wont you.

In the past maybe but at present Gunners dont do Infantry mate its called Peace Support, try not to get confused, and therfore shows the versatility of the Royal Regiments soldiers.

Your aspiration for AR to control ISTAR is inpractical and flawed you dont have the infastructure in place fact. Changing it all now would lead to capability gaps.

You sound like you want Armoured Recce to control ISTAR so you can justify your exsistence, either that or you have just done the course.

Take a look around certain Bdes and Divs were popping up every where RA Badged Targeteers, Battlespace Managers, you need to get on the band wagon or youll be left behind.

Ahem!!!!
 
#19
Now thats all fine and dandy, but I still maintain that the name "Targeteer" is gay with a capital G
 
#20
Perhaps "theonewhoknows" should go back to the RAC forum where he so obviously belongs... :twisted:

A few questions:

Where were 1 Recce Bde during TELIC 1?

During TELIC 1, who co-ordinated all deep attacks on the enemy - both kinetic and non-kinetic?

What effects can 1 Recce Bde bring to the party, the last "effect" I can remember comes from 30mm or swingfire? How does this compare to the RAF, EW, MRLS, AS90... that the RA can bring?

What assets does CVR(T) have? BGTI may be good, but it can hardly compare to Phoenix (remember it was one of GOC 1(UK) Armd Div's battle winning pieces of kit), DESERT HAWK, ASP, COBRA, MAMBA, MSTAR... The key point is that all ISTAR assets need to be fused together from the front of the battlespace to the rear and we need redundancy - who is best placed this - I do not think that the RAC are.

Go back to my original post and then read adastra's...
 
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