IsraPal movement “Fighters for Peace”

[KGB_resident]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3238373,00.html

A new brotherhood of fighters: IDF reserve soldiers and Fatah members formerly jailed for terror activity join together to launch a bi-national movement to prove there is a partner for peace
...
The movement's platform calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem and 1967 borders. Additionally, the sides declare their refusal to bear arms against each other.

 

[NotyouAgain]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3238373,00.html

A new brotherhood of fighters: IDF reserve soldiers and Fatah members formerly jailed for terror activity join together to launch a bi-national movement to prove there is a partner for peace
...
The movement's platform calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem and 1967 borders. Additionally, the sides declare their refusal to bear arms against each other.

There is no 'partner for peace' if they aren't in power, is either side willing to overthrow their elected Govt's? And once over thrown are they willing to use lethal force, if and when required, against the settlers to pull them out and against Palestinians and other arabs that refuse to stop murdering Israeli's?

Whilst I strongly believe the settlements should be withdrawn and Israel pulling back to pre-67 borders in most cases I don't believe that the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours will stop attacking Israel, not with the attitudes expressed by Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, etc.

 

[KGB_resident]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3238373,00.html

A new brotherhood of fighters: IDF reserve soldiers and Fatah members formerly jailed for terror activity join together to launch a bi-national movement to prove there is a partner for peace
...
The movement's platform calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem and 1967 borders. Additionally, the sides declare their refusal to bear arms against each other.

There is no 'partner for peace' if they aren't in power, is either side willing to overthrow their elected Govt's? And once over thrown are they willing to use lethal force, if and when required, against the settlers to pull them out and against Palestinians and other arabs that refuse to stop murdering Israeli's?

Whilst I strongly believe the settlements should be withdrawn and Israel pulling back to pre-67 borders in most cases I don't believe that the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours will stop attacking Israel, not with the attitudes expressed by Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, etc.

Let's look at Egypt or Jordan. Israel hasn't any problems with these countries. Even Syria dare not to make any military action. With fair settelment what would be reasons for the Palestinians to violate future agreements?

 

[NotyouAgain]

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3238373,00.html

A new brotherhood of fighters: IDF reserve soldiers and Fatah members formerly jailed for terror activity join together to launch a bi-national movement to prove there is a partner for peace
...
The movement's platform calls for the establishment of a Palestinian state with a capital in east Jerusalem and 1967 borders. Additionally, the sides declare their refusal to bear arms against each other.

There is no 'partner for peace' if they aren't in power, is either side willing to overthrow their elected Govt's? And once over thrown are they willing to use lethal force, if and when required, against the settlers to pull them out and against Palestinians and other arabs that refuse to stop murdering Israeli's?

Whilst I strongly believe the settlements should be withdrawn and Israel pulling back to pre-67 borders in most cases I don't believe that the Palestinians and their Arab neighbours will stop attacking Israel, not with the attitudes expressed by Hamas, Iran, Hezbollah, etc.

Let's look at Egypt or Jordan. Israel hasn't any problems with these countries. Even Syria dare not to make any military action. With fair settelment what would be reasons for the Palestinians to violate future agreements?

Egyptian and Jordan Govt's made peace with Israel, not Jordanian or Egyptian civilians with no influence over the Govt. And for some palestinians and fellow arabs the only acceptable long term agreement is the destruction of Israel, if they continue to attack Israel the Palestinian Govt will need to use force against them, are they willing to do that? (certainly not under the current Hamas govt, who have stated they'll openly help groups to attack Israeli's).

 

[KGB_resident]

Egyptian and Jordan Govt's made peace with Israel, not Jordanian or Egyptian civilians with no influence over the Govt. And for some palestinians and fellow arabs the only acceptable long term agreement is the destruction of Israel, if they continue to attack Israel the Palestinian Govt will need to use force against them, are they willing to do that? (certainly not under the current Hamas govt, who have stated they'll openly help groups to attack Israeli's).

NotyouAgain!

Let's exchange opinions.

Current PA government is Hamas-led but Hamas doesn't control security services. They are under control of mr.Abbas (e.g. Fatah). I hope you agree that previous Fatah-led government was corrupted. And corruptioners want to be at power again. By what means? How Fatah could return to power? I think that their plan is clear

1. Continue senseless shelling of Israel by home-made 'missiles'
2. Israel retaliates.
3. Hamas decides to retaliate.
4. After first terror act Israel begins to kill Hamas's leadership.
5. Finansial crisis in PA.
6. Abbas declares that Hamas is unable to govern.
7. Fatah restore itself at power without any elections.

Point #3 is the most difficult. It is a very hard task to provoke Hamas for terror act now. I'm sure that they (Hamas) are not fools and understand this game. Palestinians will lose on a battlefield. The only viable option is a diplomatic way where Palestinians have better chances. I think that Hamas has own plan:

1. Establish full control over security services.
2. Declare unilateral truce.
3. Stop shelling of Israel by force and prevent even possibilty of any terror act.
4. Don't answer by military measures on any Israeli attack.
5. Israel stops attacks.
6. De facto truce continues.
7. Israel tries by 'unfortunate' killing to provoke Hamas. It doesn't work.
8. Israel agrees to negotiations.
9. Diplomatic marathon.
10. Establishing of Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem.

I thik that mr.Olmert understands Hamas' plan and how dangerous it. He wait for a moment when it would be possible to start killing campagn against Hamas. As Fatah is his current tactical ally then I don't exclude the possiblity that they cooperate.

 

[Arik]

[quote="KGB_resident]..... I think that Hamas has own plan:

1. Establish full control over security services.
2. Declare unilateral truce.
3. Stop shelling of Israel by force and prevent even possibilty of any terror act.
4. Don't answer by military measures on any Israeli attack.
5. Israel stops attacks.
6. De facto truce continues.
7. Israel tries by 'unfortunate' killing to provoke Hamas. It doesn't work.
8. Israel agrees to negotiations.
9. Diplomatic marathon.
10. Establishing of Palestinian state with capital in East Jerusalem.

I thik that mr.Olmert understands Hamas' plan and how dangerous it. He wait for a moment when it would be possible to start killing campagn against Hamas. As Fatah is his current tactical ally then I don't exclude the possiblity the transfer of some missiles components from Israeli secret services to Fatah.[/quote]

For your last line that is farcical, however looking at your list -

1) Agree
2) Naaah - part of their allure to the Pal civ pop was their entrenched position re Israel.
3) Maybe but temporarily only for their own purposes, e.g. attract foreign aid, sympathy, etc.
4) See my point 2) above.
5) Possible
6) Possible
7) Carried out if it is aimed at intelligence driven targets, but not for provocative reasons.
Not until there is a noticeable reduction in Pals terror both publicised in the larger world and also using intelligence indicators. Israel sat down with the PLO so who knows? There is always hope.
9) Ditto, clearly dependent on all of the above.
10) I think that you will find that recent declarations and rhetoric show that the Pals are aiming for more then pre-67 borders as a state.

Besides, the Pals are still teetering on tearing themselves apart, there have been various gunbattles in the last few years between the factions and I think that there was even an incident today where Fatah took over the cabinet building in Ramallah for a while.

 

[KGB_resident]

Hi Arik!

10) I think that you will find that recent declarations and rhetoric show that the Pals are aiming for more then pre-67 borders as a state.

I think that it is obvious to anybody form recent declarations by mr.Olmert that Israel (under his leadership) is aiming for more than pre-67 borders. So if something is OK for one side then the another side should be given the same right. It is normal situation before any negotiation. Each side tries to make overdemands.

Besides, the Pals are still teetering on tearing themselves apart, there have been various gunbattles in the last few years between the factions and I think that there was even an incident today where Fatah took over the cabinet building in Ramallah for a while.

As I see you agree with my point that Fatah tries to restore itself at power by not stricktly speaking democratic measures.

As for possible cooperation between Fatah and Israeli secret services then I indeed don't exclude this possibility. As for transfers of components of missiles then it is possible only in theory. You are right and I agree with you, highly unlikely that it takes place now.

 

[KGB_resident]

Hi Arik!

10) I think that you will find that recent declarations and rhetoric show that the Pals are aiming for more then pre-67 borders as a state.

I think that it is obvious for anybody from recent declarations by mr.Olmert that Israel (under his leadership) is aiming for more than pre-67 borders. So if something is OK for one side then the another side should be given the same right. It is normal situation before any negotiation. Each side tries to make overdemands.

Besides, the Pals are still teetering on tearing themselves apart, there have been various gunbattles in the last few years between the factions and I think that there was even an incident today where Fatah took over the cabinet building in Ramallah for a while.

As I see you agree with my point that Fatah tries to restore itself at power by not stricktly speaking democratic measures.

As for possible cooperation between Fatah and Israeli secret services then I indeed don't exclude this possibility. As for transfers of components of missiles then it is possible only in theory. You are right and I agree with you, highly unlikely that it takes place now.