Israels ancient punishment

#1
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According to wikipedia, the term 'salting the earth' “refers to the practice of spreading salt on fields to make them incapable of being used for crop-growing.

This was done in ancient times at the end of some wars as an extremely punitive scorched earth tactic.”

According to ‘War's Lethal Harvest’, a Washington Post article describing Israel’s use of cluster bombs in Lebanon;

U.N. officials estimate that the Israeli military fired 90 percent of the bombs during the last 72 hours of the conflict…[…]

[…]U.N. officials said they are dumbfounded by the intensity of the firing in the war's last days, when it was clear a cease-fire was approaching.

"It's impossible for me to work out what the logic was," said David Shearer, the U.N. humanitarian coordinator for Lebanon.
I’ll tell you what the logic was. To punish the South Lebanese populace for supporting Hezbollah.

As many as 1 million of the bomblets are unexploded, they say, wounding or killing three people a day. The threat of stumbling across a bomblet has paralyzed life in parts of the south that depend on the harvest of tobacco and now-abandoned groves of bananas, olives and citrus.
Israel has ‘salted the earth’ of South Lebanon. This scored earth policy is a war crime, plain and simple. And it’s not the first time they’ve done it.

The Reagan administration imposed a six-year ban on their sale to Israel after a congressional investigation determined that Israel had misused the weapons during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon.
I never thought I’d look back on Reagan with any fondness, but in comparison to today’s president, he seems like a decent, humane leader!

The State Department said it is investigating whether Israel violated agreements with the United States on their use during the conflict this summer.
I sincerely hope, though seriously doubt, that the US will sanction Israel for this utterly immoral collective punishment against Lebanon’s civilians.

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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/25/AR2006092501500_pf.html

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#3
Cluster munitions are an area weapon that are used by virtually all nations. They are not designed to fail to explode and do not have anti-handling fuses, therefore they are not proscribed in the Geneva Convention.

The unfortunate fact is that they have a high failure rate of 10-15%. Believe it or not pretty similar to any LSA weapon system (have you been on a grenade range lately??), it's just that there are so many of them in each container. The idea that Israel fired sub-munitions as some sort of 'salting the earth' policy is plain bollocks. This is classic tin foil hat syndrome. Israel retains AP and AT mines and could have delivered these to achieve the effect described but didn't.

As an EOD operator I know how dangerous these things can be but they are no more dangerous than any other item of fired or dropped UXO. War is messy and the aftermath will take a considerable time to clear up, with or without cluster munitions.

Probably the dumbest conspiracy theory yet.
 
#4
Take your point SF , but there are over 300K unexploded munitions surveyed by the UN and other non-partisan Mine clearance agencies.

A lot of these munitions appear to have found their way into areas that can't be described as 'strategically important'

The last death toll quoted, regarding UXB's I think is 22.

It may not have been deliberate, but I don't see Israel rushing to offer to help clear up the mess.
 
#5
PTP,

Cluster munitions are used on tactical and operational targets. Targets do not need to be 'stategically significant'. Indeed the targetting process for something strategic would probably result in a LGB rather than a CBU strike.

Be cautious of estimates of submunitions. Someone has taken the data provided by the Israelis (which they readily gave to the UN) and estimated the failure rate to come up with those figures, there is no way that MAG etc can have done all the surveys in the short time they have had on the ground.

Clearance should be prioritised to those areas closest to urban populations and vital infrastructure. My experience of the UN and NGO clearance coys is that it will be prioritised to whoever gives the biggest backhander or where the most publicity is (this is very cynical and I know there are some good guys but 9 years of being involved has left a bitter taste in my mouth)..

I am not saying that there is no threat from the ordnance ( I know all too wel the risks involved) but you cannot expect to fight a conventional war (and that in the broadest terms was what occured) and not expect cluster munitions to be used. I agree that the Israelis should be contributing towards the clear up.
 
#6
ANZAC_BISCUIT said:
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According to wikipedia, the term 'salting the earth' “refers to the practice of spreading salt on fields to make them incapable of being used for crop-growing...
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=275276

On March 4, in the early morning hours, two crop-dusting planes flew over the Negev Hills, spraying field crops with a toxin that caused them to wither and die. Ten people, most of them children, inhaled the substance and required medical treatment.

The farmers whose crops were sprayed are Bedouin who have been living in the region for generations. They say damage was done to thousands of dunams of farmland that they have cultivated as far back as they can remember. These farmers are Israeli citizens...
...
The crop dusters were hired by the Israel Lands Administration (ILA) and the Green Patrol...

...they complain about sheep and camels being confiscated by the Green Patrol, with the backing of the police.

one morning in August 1993, the Israel Police and the Green Patrol suddenly appeared in their jeeps and dismantled the tents of seven families. Forty people - men, women and children - were forcibly evacuated to Skeib Salam
The Green Patrol... What is it? Maybe it is Israeli governmental structure? It is a private army, something like Hezbollah.
 
#7
Tinfoil hats on boys and girls! Agree with Mark can we have one thread containing all conspiracy theories and other non-news stories against Israel (and perhaps one for the USA)?
 
#8
call_me_jack said:
Tinfoil hats on boys and girls! Agree with Mark can we have one thread containing all conspiracy theories and other non-news stories against Israel (and perhaps one for the USA)?
May I ask for 'it's all about Russia' thread. I would be happy to look at anti-Russian posts and comment them.
 
#9
I agree Sergey, if one minority group has a thread of it own and all discussions related to it are contained within then all should. That however would be a stupid idea (particularly if the minority group was particularly prominent in current affairs eg. Muslims).
 
#10
ANZAC_BISCUIT said:
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The State Department said it is investigating whether Israel violated agreements with the United States on their use during the conflict this summer.
I sincerely hope, though seriously doubt, that the US will sanction Israel for this utterly immoral collective punishment against Lebanon’s civilians.

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Given the size and power of the Jewish vite in the US I think any sanctions are highly unlikely. If I were an Israeli I would be thinking "Learn your lesson Hezbollah"... and I suspect they will be licking their wounds for some time to come.
 
#11
short-fuse said:
Cluster munitions are an area weapon that are used by virtually all nations. They are not designed to fail to explode and do not have anti-handling fuses, therefore they are not proscribed in the Geneva Convention.

The unfortunate fact is that they have a high failure rate of 10-15%. Believe it or not pretty similar to any LSA weapon system (have you been on a grenade range lately??), it's just that there are so many of them in each container. The idea that Israel fired sub-munitions as some sort of 'salting the earth' policy is plain balls. This is classic tin foil hat syndrome. Israel retains AP and AT mines and could have delivered these to achieve the effect described but didn't.

As an EOD operator I know how dangerous these things can be but they are no more dangerous than any other item of fired or dropped UXO. War is messy and the aftermath will take a considerable time to clear up, with or without cluster munitions.

Probably the dumbest conspiracy theory yet.
Bugger me! A sensible post in an anti Israel thread...... surely not!

Just gotta wait for PTP to pipe up with some Guardianesque comments in response...... oh no wait one I'm too late.
 
#12
[quote="Mr_BridgerIf I were an Israeli I would be thinking "Learn your lesson Hezbollah"... and I suspect they will be licking their wounds for some time to come.[/quote]

Yes, I imagine the Israelis will be licking their wounds for many months. All that effort and still they lost. When will they learn that it is simply not possible to defeat a organisation like Hezbollah by treating it as if you were fighting an armored division ?

That thet knew they were losing is shown by their attempt to punish the Lebanese by destroying their infrastructure etc etc.

War criminals.
 
#14
WW - any more of this and you'll find yourself on a 'Its all about marmite' thread, along with the other naughty boys.

And it still mings.
 
#15
saladin said:
[quote="Mr_BridgerIf I were an Israeli I would be thinking "Learn your lesson Hezbollah"... and I suspect they will be licking their wounds for some time to come.
Yes, I imagine the Israelis will be licking their wounds for many months. All that effort and still they lost. When will they learn that it is simply not possible to defeat a organisation like Hezbollah by treating it as if you were fighting an armored division ?

That thet knew they were losing is shown by their attempt to punish the Lebanese by destroying their infrastructure etc etc.

War criminals.[/quote]

Saladin... an interesting point of view, but not one which I will side with on this ocassion. Who lost the most manpower, equipment and support. Who is suffering more in the short, medium and long term?

Even the illustrious (?) IRA realised in the end that terrorism was getting them nowhere after 30+ years. one suspects that the more rational and moderate members of HezB will be manouevring to gain control. Nasrallah has eaten humble pie.
 
#16
Mr_Bridger said:
saladin said:
[quote="Mr_BridgerIf I were an Israeli I would be thinking "Learn your lesson Hezbollah"... and I suspect they will be licking their wounds for some time to come.
Yes, I imagine the Israelis will be licking their wounds for many months. All that effort and still they lost. When will they learn that it is simply not possible to defeat a organisation like Hezbollah by treating it as if you were fighting an armored division ?

That thet knew they were losing is shown by their attempt to punish the Lebanese by destroying their infrastructure etc etc.

War criminals.
Saladin... an interesting point of view, but not one which I will side with on this ocassion. Who lost the most manpower, equipment and support. Who is suffering more in the short, medium and long term?

Even the illustrious (?) IRA realised in the end that terrorism was getting them nowhere after 30+ years. one suspects that the more rational and moderate members of HezB will be manouevring to gain control. Nasrallah has eaten humble pie.[/quote]

Hmmm. I posted when the invasion started that all Hezbollah had to do to win was to have one 19yo able to fire on Israel at the end of the operation. They actually achieved far more than that. Who is in control of the ground ? Who do the rest of the Arab world think won ? Is Olmert being carried shoulder high, crowned in the victors laurels ? I think not.
Asymetric warfare. Its not about numbers - its about effect. The effect here is to anger even more Lebanese and expose the IDF as unable to achieve its war aims. Sorry. Hezbollah won. Big time. They will play an even bigger part in Lebanese affairs after this, mark my words.
 
#17
saladin said:
Hmmm. I posted when the invasion started that all Hezbollah had to do to win was to have one 19yo able to fire on Israel at the end of the operation. They actually achieved far more than that. Who is in control of the ground ? Who do the rest of the Arab world think won ? Is Olmert being carried shoulder high, crowned in the victors laurels ? I think not.
Asymetric warfare. Its not about numbers - its about effect. The effect here is to anger even more Lebanese and expose the IDF as unable to achieve its war aims. Sorry. Hezbollah won. Big time. They will play an even bigger part in Lebanese affairs after this, mark my words.
Concur to the fullest.Israel is not the bunch of little angels we have come to see them as.As a matter of fact they are in most instances more brutal than the Palestinians we so love to demonize.Because they control the propaganda machine.
 
#18
saladin said:
Mr_Bridger said:
saladin said:
[quote="Mr_BridgerIf I were an Israeli I would be thinking "Learn your lesson Hezbollah"... and I suspect they will be licking their wounds for some time to come.
Yes, I imagine the Israelis will be licking their wounds for many months. All that effort and still they lost. When will they learn that it is simply not possible to defeat a organisation like Hezbollah by treating it as if you were fighting an armored division ?

That thet knew they were losing is shown by their attempt to punish the Lebanese by destroying their infrastructure etc etc.

War criminals.
Saladin... an interesting point of view, but not one which I will side with on this ocassion. Who lost the most manpower, equipment and support. Who is suffering more in the short, medium and long term?

Even the illustrious (?) IRA realised in the end that terrorism was getting them nowhere after 30+ years. one suspects that the more rational and moderate members of HezB will be manouevring to gain control. Nasrallah has eaten humble pie.
Hmmm. I posted when the invasion started that all Hezbollah had to do to win was to have one 19yo able to fire on Israel at the end of the operation. They actually achieved far more than that. Who is in control of the ground ? Who do the rest of the Arab world think won ? Is Olmert being carried shoulder high, crowned in the victors laurels ? I think not.
Asymetric warfare. Its not about numbers - its about effect. The effect here is to anger even more Lebanese and expose the IDF as unable to achieve its war aims. Sorry. Hezbollah won. Big time. They will play an even bigger part in Lebanese affairs after this, mark my words.[/quote]

Well in that case I hope your happy with the death and carnage that your heroes have caused. Even Nasrallah had the humility to apologise for their actions.

Humility you seem to be lacking.
 
#19
I don't condone all of the Israeli acts during those weeks, however there is one indisputable fact. All of the misery heaped upon Lebanon was down to Hezbollah kicking off in the first place and now they have to count the cost.

I don't belive that Israel is entirely innocent all of the time, but you have to admit that you know where you stand with them if you are going to attack their borders! You know exactly what's going to come back at you, in spades!

The Lebanese now have to consider if their future is to be with Hezbollah or not. Would you want to have a government with such a cavalier attitude to your and your families lives?

Nasrallah even stated just after the cease fire that he regretted the loss of life and that had he considered the consequences of his actions he would not have kidnapped the soldiers in the first place....hmmmm so the Israeli's lost then did they? Don't think so, they made their point, and have made a repeat showing by Hezbollah very unlikely for quite some time to come.

Once last thing. If Israel really wanted to go for a "Scorched Earth" policy, then I think that they could have done it far more effectively than using cluster bombs.

Now please can we drop this Anti-Israel cack, personally I'm fed up of hearing it all the time.
 
#20
We need to take a deep breath and consider the ROOT cause of this wars.Its not Hamas.Its not HIzbollah.Its the forceful annexation of ARAB land by European Jews.

Read your history books and I'm not talking about the Bible.The Palestimians are not fighting because they are Muslim.They would fight if they were Hindu,or Budhists or even Christians.

The Jews have been so successful at fooling the world about why they are under constant attack by ragtag miltias.They succeed because they control information and the media.Read history before 1948.The truth has always been there.
 

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