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Israeli shelling kills 18 in Gaza

#1
May have been covered, but haven't seen any yet and feel it deserves discussion.

At least 18 Palestinians have been killed and 40 wounded by Israeli tank fire in the northern Gaza town of Beit Hanoun, Palestinian sources have said.
Palestinian officials said a barrage of tank shells hit civilian homes, and women and children were among the dead.

Israel has expressed regret for the civilian deaths and says it is investigating the incident.


Palestinian leaders have called for an emergency UN Security Council meeting to force Israel to stop military raids.

The Palestinian prime minister, Hamas's Ismail Haniya, denounced the Israeli attack as an "awful massacre" and said talks on forming Palestinian unity government would be suspended.

Israeli Defence Minister Amir Peretz ordered the halt in artillery attacks and called for an urgent inquiry into the incident.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert expressed regret over the killings and offered humanitarian assistance to the wounded.

Palestinian hospital officials said 13 of the dead belonged to the same family, and two of them were women and six were children.
[c]bbc.co.uk

I am normally quite pro-Isreal on most issues regarding the middle-East, but there can be NO excuse for this!

18 people from the same family killed by tank fire into a civilian area. How can this be justified?

Just guess how many new recruits are rocking up to Hamas headquarters asking for nice new jacket that goes bang!

PS, the figure of 18 from same family was quoted on 1o'clock news,
 
#2
The perpetrators are saying it was a mistake, so it's not being justified. There was a chilling report on Radio Four PM programme this evening. And an equally chilling 'apology' from an Israeli spokeswoman.
 
#3
Channel 4 is reporting it as an air strike. The Beeb as artillery strikes.

What ever it is, it is wrong and whilst I defend most of Israels actions I cannot defend this
 
#4
The Israeli response this time is interesting, usually they either deny that they fired the weapons implying the Palestinians are killing their own, or that it was a deliberately targeted strike at some real terrorists who were hiding behind civilians.

One does wonder however how supposedly the best anti terrorist army in the world can get it's targeting quite so far out, one would have thought they could have spotted the difference between open desert and a village.

Peter
 
#5
I'm not defending the Israeli action (as PTP can testify I am very pro-Israeli) but they did claim that they were trying to hit some Rocket launchers. Bad targetting deserves to be punished and should be in this case; but what should be done about those 'Heroic' :roll: Hamas terrorists who fire their weapons systems from within heavily civillian populated areas?
 
#6
A tragedy for the family involved. Not excusing this terrible incident but it should be borne in mind that if Hamas types weren't firing THEIR unguided rockets deliberately into civilian areas, then Israel wouldn't need to retaliate.

When terrorist hide amongst civvies, civvies will end up becoming casualties. The finger of blame doesn't just point at the IDF in this case. There is joint guilt for the loss of innocent lives.
 
#7
frenchperson said:
The perpetrators are saying it was a mistake, so it's not being justified. There was a chilling report on Radio Four PM programme this evening. And an equally chilling 'apology' from an Israeli spokeswoman.
For once i must agree. The spokeswoman was very clinical, and used the age old tactic of answering a question with another question.
 
#8
Letterwritingman said:
I'm not defending the Israeli action (as PTP can testify I am very pro-Israeli) but they did claim that they were trying to hit some Rocket launchers. Bad targetting deserves to be punished and should be in this case; but what should be done about those 'Heroic' :roll: Hamas terrorists who fire their weapons systems from within heavily civillian populated areas?
Whilst i agree, as the only democratic country in the region (apart from maybe Eyerack! :roll: ), they should have the moral courage not to lower themselves to the levels of the terrorist organisations they seek to destroy.

Using the 'they did it first' excuse, is not acceptable in todays world
 
#10
Letterwritingman said:
I'm not defending the Israeli action (as PTP can testify I am very pro-Israeli) but they did claim that they were trying to hit some Rocket launchers. Bad targetting deserves to be punished and should be in this case; but what should be done about those 'Heroic' :roll: Hamas terrorists who fire their weapons systems from within heavily civillian populated areas?
If this had been a case of Hamas etc hiding in the village your comments may have carried some weight, but the 'target' was some 500 metres away, not in the village.

As for the Palestinian terrorists they should be dealt with as severely as the Israeli ones. After all the Israeli purpose of massive response to terror attacks is intended to terrorise the civilian population into dealing with the terrorists.

Both sides are equally guilty, a pox on both their houses.

Peter
 
#11
Agent_Smith said:
Letterwritingman said:
I'm not defending the Israeli action (as PTP can testify I am very pro-Israeli) but they did claim that they were trying to hit some Rocket launchers. Bad targetting deserves to be punished and should be in this case; but what should be done about those 'Heroic' :roll: Hamas terrorists who fire their weapons systems from within heavily civillian populated areas?
Whilst i agree, as the only democratic country in the region (apart from maybe Eyerack! :roll: ), they should have the moral courage not to lower themselves to the levels of the terrorist organisations they seek to destroy.

Using the 'they did it first' excuse, is not acceptable in todays world
So they are just supposed to sit there and take it then, are they? Hamas deliberately fire from heavily populated areas because they know Westerners will react like this.

On another note, The BBC footage shown last night was pure Pallywood.
 
#13
Just heard a report on US news that an initial investigation by the IDF found the guns were firing with an error of 500m. Someone remind me of the lethal area of 155mm?
A lot of what's been going on has been clouded in the US by the elections, so the IDFs most powerful critic hasn't even been listening. Sad but true.
 
#14
"Israel's right to defend itself" blah blah blah

When was the last time Israeli military intervention actually worked?

The rights and wrongs of the situation are impossible to judge, but the real question is: will Israeli attacks on Gaza bring long-term security to Israel?

Answer: NO

So don't do it then!
 
#15
stoatman said:
So they are just supposed to sit there and take it then, are they?
No, they’re perfectly entitled to kill Hamas members who attack them. Nobody here would argue with that, but it’s not the issue. The issue is the indiscriminate targeting of civilian areas and a total disregard for civilian lives. When they do that, they are no better than Hamas.

We didn’t shell West Belfast in response to PIRA attacks there on the mainland. By the Israeli standard, we would have been justified in doing so, because PIRA players lived there, some of their attacks were carried out there and others were planned from there. It would have been justified apart from one thing – it wouldn’t have been justified. Nor is it justified when the Israelis do similar things.

I note that the Israelis are calling this a mistake, but there have been so many similar “mistakes” over the years that one has to question the truth of those Israeli statements. If they had been few and far between, it might be credible, but when they happen so often they become the norm.
 
#16
stoatman said:
Agent_Smith said:
Letterwritingman said:
I'm not defending the Israeli action (as PTP can testify I am very pro-Israeli) but they did claim that they were trying to hit some Rocket launchers. Bad targetting deserves to be punished and should be in this case; but what should be done about those 'Heroic' :roll: Hamas terrorists who fire their weapons systems from within heavily civillian populated areas?
Whilst i agree, as the only democratic country in the region (apart from maybe Eyerack! :roll: ), they should have the moral courage not to lower themselves to the levels of the terrorist organisations they seek to destroy.

Using the 'they did it first' excuse, is not acceptable in todays world
So they are just supposed to sit there and take it then, are they? Hamas deliberately fire from heavily populated areas because they know Westerners will react like this.

On another note, The BBC footage shown last night was pure Pallywood.
Come on, you know i'm anything BUT anti-isreal, but Isreal as a western civilised and democratic country (compared to some of their neighbours!) have a moral obligation NOT to drop down to the levels of the terrorists otherwise they become as bad as those they seek to destroy.

Regardless of wether Hamas use civilians as human sheilds, the IDF must apply strict moral courage and evern stricter fire control, or they will end up with a middle eastern version of My Lai. :?
 
#19
Chinggis said:
stoatman said:
So they are just supposed to sit there and take it then, are they?
No, they’re perfectly entitled to kill Hamas members who attack them. Nobody here would argue with that, but it’s not the issue. The issue is the indiscriminate targeting of civilian areas and a total disregard for civilian lives. When they do that, they are no better than Hamas.
Just how many civilians are they allowed to kill for each Hamas operative they attack?

This week it would seem to be 20 civilians and 0 Hamas, pretty good score for a civilised country.

Peter
 
#20
Agent_Smith said:
Come on, you know i'm anything BUT anti-isreal, but Isreal as a western civilised and democratic country (compared to some of their neighbours!) have a moral obligation NOT to drop down to the levels of the terrorists otherwise they become as bad as those they seek to destroy.

Regardless of wether Hamas use civilians as human sheilds, the IDF must apply strict moral courage and evern stricter fire control, or they will end up with a middle eastern version of My Lai. :?
Israel started at the same level as the terrorists and has never really manged to crawl out of that gutter.

The Israeli government repeatedly carries out 'puinishment killings, how many Lebanese civilians did they kill as a punishment for Hezbollah, how many Palestinians have they killed as a punisment for Hamas.

Peter
 

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