Israeli pilots are revolting.......

#1
On AOL today...........

Israeli Pilots Refuse
to Strike at Palestinians

A GROUP of air force pilots are refusing to carry out air strikes in Palestinian territories, the first such protest from pilots who are revered in Israel.

The declaration was made by 27 pilots in the reserves who regularly carry out combat missions.

Major General Dan Halutz, the air force commander, accused the pilots of playing politics.

Israel frequently strikes at Palestinian militants in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, describing the operations as "targeted killings."

In recent months, Israel has used air force helicopters to hunt and attack political leaders of the militant Hamas, responsible for most of the suicide bombings that have killed hundreds of Israelis.

But the pilots said: "We, veteran and active pilots, are opposed to carrying out the illegal and immoral attack orders of the sort that Israel carries out in the territories,"

They added: "We are refusing to continue to attack innocent civilians."

Israel's Channel 2 television reported that the pilots are also refusing to ferry ground troops for attacks in the Palestinian territories.

Halutz also criticised the pilots for not venting their grievances through the proper chain of command.

The pilots' protest comes after about 500 Israeli reserve soldiers have chosen prison over military service in the Palestinian territories during the last three years of Israeli-Palestinian violence, claiming that Israel's occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip is illegal.
 
#3
:lol:

Is there any action any of you would refuse on the grounds of conscience? I remember telling some officer bloke on my RCB that I would not fight in any action against South Africa...............he, with a commendably straight face, told me that was highly unlikely to happen............ :roll:
 
#4
Prodigal said:
:lol:

Is there any action any of you would refuse on the grounds of conscience? I remember telling some officer bloke on my RCB that I would not fight in any action against South Africa...............he, with a commendably straight face, told me that was highly unlikely to happen............ :roll:
Lot's of actions I would refuse on a point of conscience, but it would all depend on the situation, and some of thsoe points would go out the window in certain circumstances.

All praise to the Israeli pilots though, and I would expect ours to act in the same way. Only people like this will finally bring some form of sanity to the situation in Palestine.
 
#5
I have to say, I agree withyou.

I remember reading a report in the early 80s about the very high incidence of PTSD amongst Israeli troops when Israel invaded Lebanon and set up their 'buffer'zone - the rate being as high as 80%. There was some speculation about the lack of belief in the morality of the action being an important factor.

Do the Israeli soldiers have a greater psychological involvement in their military service than other nations, because of their political circumstances?
 
#6
I thought about south africa but having met and worked with denizens
of that place slot the the lot .Wish I had a moral center but on soul searching realise that i would probably obey orders without hestation no
matter how insane or morally corrupt they were .Might feel bad about it later. Does this make me a bad person? according to psychologists who did some dogy experiments most people obey orders without question.
Has any one asked what the isreal pilots would rather be doing its probably bombing iran/syria/jordan/etc etc
 
#7
Woody, accept your observations about a lot of suid afrikaaners being miserable so and sos......... 8O

It interests me to think how well the average Brit soldier maintained neutrality in NI - whatever they may have thought about the locals of either persuasion (Not a lot......) I suspect (I may be wrong) that most soldiers didn't have a strong ideological view of the situation over there. Or is that a wrong assumption?
 
#8
I think that we don't have the right to pick and choose the conflict. That is the essence of being the army of a democracy.

Like many of us may not have been happy with the whys and wherefores of I-rack, but I don't think we have the right not to go. Likewise SA.

Where you excercise your morality is in your personal conduct during the conflict. Which is essentially what these Israelis are doing. Bit of a thin line, but it is there. It comes down to how you personally treat prisoners, civvies and how you conduct yourself.

The actions of some soldiers who don't realise this reflect on all of us.

I think Col Tim Collins put it best in his speech.
 
#9
Where you excercise your morality is in your personal conduct during the conflict
And this is what St Thomas Aquinas described as jus a bello or Justice in war, which is seperate from justice OF war. It is the moral obligation of the soldier (be he a pte or gen) to determine what actions are and are not morally justifiable. If a government takes a view that a war should be fouhgt on immoral grounds and you did not support that government in the ballot box or in any other way but are still committed to fight then you are absolved of any moral responsibility as far as going to war is concerned, but your actions while prosecuting that war are very much on the individual conscience.

Frankly it's about time some sanity was brought to the region. While I don't condone terrorism for a second, I have to wonder how long the Israelis are going to hide their atrocities and state sponsored acts of terrorism with their forces and tradnig off the memory of the Holocaust? What happened 60 years ago does not give rise to the justification that Israel can undertake acts of international outrage because of what happened in WW2. The circumstances are different and they have no more right to undertake atrocities than any other country to safeguard their security, and if we as an international community were not so wrapped up in the collective guilt of PC-ism we would call Israel to account.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#11
El_Pato said:
Where you excercise your morality is in your personal conduct during the conflict.
Well said, and I'm sure from a legislation point of view, absolutley correct. The fact that these pilots chose this route in the face of the belligerance and rampant nationalism of the Israeli state, is a credit to the Jewish people.
 

Cutaway

LE
Kit Reviewer
#13
woody said:
......

Wish I had a moral center but on soul searching realise that i would probably obey orders without hestation no
matter how insane or morally corrupt they were .Might feel bad about it later. Does this make me a bad person?

......
A bad person ? Possibly.
It would probably put you in the same category as a number of German troops who have been vilified for doing the self same thing.

Would get you knocked off a lot of Christmas card lists as least.
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#15
Here is an account from a Jewish website, so maybe take that into account. International law requires an army of occupation to ensure the security of civilians, not allow Phalange death squads in to butcher women and children (Sorry for the Bias). Sharon was defence minister at the time, so when he visited the mosque in Jerusalem, which was the spark of the Al Aqsa intifada, the Palestinians were a tad annoyed.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/Sabra_&_Shatila.html
 

Attachments

#16
Point made recently by senior bod who came to talk to us (prev senior figure at RTMC Chilwell) - conscientious objection is about whether or not you join the Army; you don't have the right to decline to participate in individual campaigns...

However, where does this leave disobeying orders which you believe to be illegal, as you are presumably supposed to?
 

Nehustan

On ROPS
On ROPs
#17
I think the legal precedent was clearly set out at Nuremberg.

(P.S. You may well get shot by your NCO or Officer for disobeying if its in the midst of a firefight, but if it really goes against everything you believe, well, soldiers are well known for dying for what they believe in!) ;)
 
#18
Prodigal said:
Woody, accept your observations about a lot of suid afrikaaners being miserable so and sos......... 8O

It interests me to think how well the average Brit soldier maintained neutrality in NI - whatever they may have thought about the locals of either persuasion (Not a lot......) I suspect (I may be wrong) that most soldiers didn't have a strong ideological view of the situation over there. Or is that a wrong assumption?
I found most soldiers I worked with out in NI in the early 90’s to hold pretty well balanced views on the whole thing. It is this experience that has lead me to question the Nationalist version of the bloody Sunday shootings – I know British soldiers would not just open fire indiscriminately on unarmed civilians. In 3 years in NI I only came across a few who were biased, if that is even the right word, towards one side or the other. The home service RIR were a different matter altogether though.
 
#19
clownbasher said:
Point made recently by senior bod who came to talk to us (prev senior figure at RTMC Chilwell) - conscientious objection is about whether or not you join the Army; you don't have the right to decline to participate in individual campaigns...

However, where does this leave disobeying orders which you believe to be illegal, as you are presumably supposed to?
It can be done, but must be done VERY carefully.

Whilst in NI with a Gunner battery some of the officers wanted me to prof the intercom set, they thought it would be quite useful back in the offices in Germany. Whilst they didn't say outright that they wanted me to pinch it for them there was quite a bit of pressure. In the end I had to say that "with all due respect I wasn't going to steal the kit for them". Nothing more was said after that.

Perhaps it also helped that the Workshop OC was still my reporting officer, not the Gunner officers.
 
#20
Nehustan said:
.....Sharon was defence minister at the time, so when he visited the mosque in Jerusalem, which was the spark of the Al Aqsa intifada, the Palestinians were a tad annoyed....
Nehustan - you are living up to your profile name! Sharon's visit to Al Asqa was the 'excuse' used to re-ignite the Intifada, not the reason for it.
 

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