Israeli FM: Palestinians who target soldiers not terrorists

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by mora, Apr 21, 2006.

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  1. Israel's foreign minister, Tzipi Livni, whose father was labelled a terrorist by the British for his membership of the Jewish underground, was the director of operations for the Irgun, one of the hard-line Jewish nationalist groups that fought against British rule in Palestine in the 1940s.

    "We must say to the international community that terrorists who take the lives of civilians are terrorists, that you cannot justify their motivations," she said.We must do everything to prevent terrorists gaininig international legitimacy. Nobody can look me in the eye and tell me that a terrorist who blows himself up in an restaurant or disco or shopping centre has legitimate motives."

  2. Two things occur to me. The first one is that the lady concerned is being remarkably honest and frank about such matters and should be congratulated. The state of Israel was founded on the back of terrorism against the British forces there. This does not render it illegitimate, terrorism is a tactic rather than an opponent. Indeed, should we analyse some of the irregular actions performed by the winning side in the American War of Independence using todays definitions we might some to some interesting conclusions. And here's a thought, how was "Shock and Awe" supposed to work ? By terrorising the recipients into surrender. So using terror as a tool of policy, that must make it ....

    The reaction of the NY Post is fascinating though as they seem to be seeking to condemn terrorism as automatically evil yet making damn sure that the definition of terrorism used doesn't apply to anything that might embarass the US. I find hanging a claim of moral absolutism (terrorism's bad, mmmkay) on the back of a convoluted pile of semantic definition deeply suspicious.
  3. Maybe to you Pol Pot.
  4. No - he's right. Else we may as well declare war on hedonism, modernism and stoicism.
  5. A few questions then:

    1. Israel was founded on the back of terrorist acts against the British Army, would you have supported military action and regime change against them at the time ?
    2. If your answer to 2. is no then why was their terrorism acceptable ?
    3. Would you refrain from hostile action following any invasion of the UK on the grounds that the only way of resistance is through terrorism ?
    4. If your answer to 3. is that you are a freedom fighter as you are fighting foreign troops in your country how do you classify Iraqis fighting against foreign troops in their country ?

    Life is not black and white, and one of the reasons we're not making headway on our enemies is that we refuse to acknowledge this.
  6. I'm against Modernism

    "Finally, in short, I profess to be utterly free of the error according to which the modernists hold that there is nothing divine in the sacred tradition; or, what is far worse, admit this in the pantheistic sense, so that nothing remains but the bare and simple fact to be assimilated with the common facts of history, namely, of men by their industry, skill, and genius continuing through subsequent ages the school inaugurated by Christ and His disciples."

    From Pope Pius X's Oath against Modernism

    talk about Thread Drift :roll:
  7. To your point one, this is not quite the whole truth. The Zionist movement also used diplomatic means over several decades to bring it's goals to the world stage eg. the hard work put in by Chaim Weizman. As you may be aware, the Jewish Palestinian underground (Hagana) worked in conjunction with Britain in Mandate Palestine for many years against arab insurrection (e.g. protecting the oil pipeline to Haifa, etc). The actions of a minority underground movement e.g. IZL or Stern gang are exaggerated in their contribution to Israeli independence.
  8. One_of_the_strange Is completely right in what he is saying. A very good example would be to rewind back to WW2, had the Germans been successful in the Battle of Britain and Invaded the UK , I can guarantee you that the British people would have had a Resistance/Insurgency against the German occupier .The German Army would have perceived us as Terrorists , like we perceive the Iraqi Insurgents/Resistance Fighters as Terrorists who blow up Iraqi Forces ,civilians and Coalition Troops.

    It has to be said that the various Resistance/Insurgencies in Iraq have different reasons for why they are fighting, some because they want their country back and us out of it , and some for personal and political gain.

    You can almost tell who is who when it comes to attacks, the ones taking out Iraqi and Coalition Military Targets are the people who are generally the indigenous people of Iraq . The ones who blow up civilians are generally the outsiders looking to cause havoc and gain power and influence in the region through that chaos .

    Of Course you get the ones who we truly know as terrorists the Hijackers, 9/11, 7/7. All these people have a mission and a cause that they believe to be the right, we don’t share in there beliefs we see them as terrorists they see us as Terrorists because they believe our foreign policy is aimed and undermining and eventually destroying their way of life.

    Whoever has the biggest punch and reach will be the one who is seen as right as they have global influence , the others who cant fight square and have to ankle bite , well they will always be seen as the terrorist………..

    This is just my thought on the subject
  9. Well, Hamas do more than just terrorism but so what ? Does that excuse their acts ?

    That said, if I was Jewish and in Israel then I would have done what I could and if that meant joining up with that Begin fellow and blowing up some hotel full of British squaddies then so be it. As it happens I find myself in the British Army in a Corps whose history includes some of my forebears being murdered in an olive grove by some of those "minority" you refer too, so my perspective may well differ.

    Frankly though, it's all water under the bridge now. We need to see the world as it is and justify actions on their effects here and now, not on what your grandad did to mine and vice versa.
  10. The difference with Pals terrorism is that they have a penchant for going after 'soft' civilian targets rarely military or civil administration targets, they also use children and have been known to use ambulances in pursuit of their goals, etc. There is a definite distinction between a group that pursues civilian targets and those that go after military / political targets.

    Unless you were in the periphery of the Jewish Palestine mandate population you would of been more likely to join the Hagana rather then IZL / Stern.

    If you were referring to the 2 sergeants hung in a grove ('47?) I think you may find that one of them was apparently Jewish, showing that the group who carried out the killing were defeating their own purposes.

    BTW - You may find that your predecessors and mine served in the same uniform with the same pride and loyalty!!
  11. Surely though a campaign of killing troops to achieve independence from an occupying power is an insurgency? My issue is that walking into a restaurant and blowing yourself up in a crowd of civilians is not achieving independence. You're trying to stamp your authority on others and that to me is where terrorism goes from a tactic to achieve independence to a tactic to intimidate and control others and should be stopped.
  12. It is exactly that Un-Friendly-Fire ,that is how they think they can get their cause seen world wide and achieve influence against whoever they perceive as their oppressor .
    Its completely wrong and indefensible in our eyes but in their eyes it’s the only way , and remember it’s a human being that’s blowing themselves up , you don’t do that sort of act unless you have total faith in what you think your going to achieve .
  13. Some are forced into it as a way of 'atoning' for sacrilege or similar e.g. women who have been caught playing around. Not all are absolute willing participants.
  14. I Cant imagine many of them are hence why they use drugs And similar techniques to make people do these things , however a lot of Saudi suicide bombers do it because they have deep faith. These are the people , who no matter what you say there is only one way for them.
  15. Arik!

    You are obviously a highly intelligent person. Be fair, really you don't think this way. Rather you wish to believe it.

    Anyway, suppose that noone Palestinian is being forced to be a suicide-bomber. Then, say me frankly, whould you change your attitude to them?

    Edited to add:

    Mrs Livni, btw is a former officer. It should be appreciated. Personally I don't see anything wrong in her statements.