Israeli-Arab dreams to be IAF pilot

#1
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3230408,00.html

He wanted to become the first Israeli-Arab pilot in the IDF, but will have to settle for a tank instead.
...
The unusual request submitted by the teenager, who possesses a civilian pilot license
I fancy what he would make on his plane if it would happen.

"I didn't shelve my dream to become a fighter pilot", the teen explained. "I'll wait until the Air Force opens its doors to Israeli-Arabs as well. Meanwhile, I'd like to puruse a military career in the Armored Corps," he said.

Hassan, the teenager's father is very proud of his son and his determination to join the army.

"I'm hoping that IDF officials will appreciate and encourage citizens like my son and allow them to be integrated into the Air Force in the future, an important step for the country and its Arab citizens", he said.
Who knows? There is a lot of Druzes and Bedouins in IDF. Step by step demographic weapon would lead to Israeli membership in Organisation of Islamic Conference.
 
#3
KGB_resident said:
....Step by step demographic weapon would lead to Israeli membership in Organisation of Islamic Conference.
:lol: :lol: That would be the day!

FYI - It is not only volunteer Israeli arabs that are excluded from such prestigous courses and units on security grounds, but also foreigners who volunteer for service. You can have impeccable credentials, but the highly security sensitive positions / units are all off limits.
 
#5
Can't blame them for saying no.
Why not? It’s racial discrimination isn’t it?

They refused to give the lad a chance, despite him being “loyal to the State”, simply because he’s an Arab and a Muslim. Perhaps they should be honest and change their name from Israeli Air Force to Jewish Air Force.
 
#6
Chinggis said:
Can't blame them for saying no.
Why not? It’s racial discrimination isn’t it?

They refused to give the lad a chance, despite him being “loyal to the State”, simply because he’s an Arab and a Muslim. Perhaps they should be honest and change their name from Israeli Air Force to Jewish Air Force.
Who 'says', he's loyal to the state, dont the Israelis have vetting then? After all, he might well end up carrying a significant bomb load.
 
#7
Chinggis said:
Can't blame them for saying no.
Why not? It’s racial discrimination isn’t it?

They refused to give the lad a chance, despite him being “loyal to the State”, simply because he’s an Arab and a Muslim. Perhaps they should be honest and change their name from Israeli Air Force to Jewish Air Force.
Go and put a complaint in to the CRE!! Fortunately, the Israeli defence establishment has not been too affected by PC so far (although it is going that way). Like I said, previously it is not only Israeli arabs who cannot get onto these prestigous courses due to background.

Chinggis - Israel is a Jewish state, that is what it was founded for, with minorities within it. These minorities also serve with honour. Arabs and muslims serve within the IDF, if they were unacceptable they would not be allowed to serve, they also receive equal treatment in service and have attained command rank.

Best of luck to this kid, he can show his mettle in the Armour Corps.
 
#8
Who 'says', he's loyal to the state,
An officer in the Israeli Air Force says so. The report says:

IDF Major (res.) Michael, the youth's instructor at the civilian pilot course, who is himself a former combat pilot, even sent a reference letter to the IDF, praised the young pilot's performance and recommended the Air Force welcome him to its ranks, adding that he was convinced his student was "loyal to the State."

dont the Israelis have vetting then?
I’m sure they do have vetting, but this is not a vetting decision, it’s a policy decision – only Jews can be pilots.

After all, he might well end up carrying a significant bomb load.
He might, or he might have ended up flying a Hercules of a transport helicopter. The point is, they have no intention of trusting him with “a significant bomb load” because he’s not Jewish. Imagine the outcry if the RAF had a policy of not recruiting Jewish pilots because they didn't trust them.

It seems the Israelis would trust him with a significant load of tank ammunition though. I fail to see the difference.

Chinggis - Israel is a Jewish state, that is what it was founded for
Exactly – and that’s the crux of the problem. Israel exists for the benefit of Jews, irrespective of their birth nationality. It should be a state for Israelis, irrespective of their religion. In this context, here’s another quote from the guy’s flying instructor:

"There is no other way but to include all the State's citizens in running the State and protecting it. We don’t see them as part of the State today, but a large majority of them do see themselves as part of this country," he said.
 
#9
Chinggis said:
.....I’m sure they do have vetting, but this is not a vetting decision, it’s a policy decision – only Jews can be pilots.
Only citizens who are beyond any security doubts can be pilots. The IAF will never take any chances in allowing any form of security risk, would the RAF?

The kid could be on the level, this does not mean in the future that he could be 'got to' to divulge information.

It seems the Israelis would trust him with a significant load of tank ammunition though.
Well he will have 3 others in the tank with him to make sure he does not go it alone!! Why does it have to be an issue of firepower he can get control of? Again, allowing him to serve in the IAF allows him access to more sensitive security material then he would be exposed to in the Armour Corps.

Israel exists for the benefit of Jews, irrespective of their birth nationality. It should be a state for Israelis, irrespective of their religion.
Israel is a state for Israelis, the country is largely secular, many people identify themselves as Israelis not Jews, the Druze class themselves as Israelis, etc.

In this context, here’s another quote from the guy’s flying instructor:

"There is no other way but to include all the State's citizens in running the State and protecting it. We don’t see them as part of the State today, but a large majority of them do see themselves as part of this country," he said.
Unfortunately a significant proportion of the Israeli arab population does not see itself as anything when it comes to Israel. They have no love of the country or the people but gratefully receive the benefit of the Israeli economy and education system. The instructor was "convinced" that the kid would be loyal to the State, this is a personal opinion, not conclusive procedural security vetting.
The reason his face in the article is covered is to prevent any comeback from his own people as they are likely to be prone to extreme discrimination if they have found one of their own wanting to join the IDF!!
 
#10
The IAF will never take any chances in allowing any form of security risk, would the RAF?
The RAF does not have a policy that considers a proportion of the British population to be a security risk based only on their ethnicity or religion.

Israel is a state for Israelis, the country is largely secular
If that is the case, why does Israel allow foreign born Jews the right to become Israel citizens, simply on the basis of their religion?

Unfortunately a significant proportion of the Israeli arab population does not see itself as anything when it comes to Israel.
The guys flying instructor, an Israeli officer - and obviously a Jewish one or he would not have been a pilot - said that a significant proportion of Israeli Jews don't consider Israeli Arabs as being a part of the state, but that "a large majority of them do see themselves as part of this country". His words. He probably has a different opinion of Palestinians, but he’s talking about a citizen of Israel who just happens not to be a Jew. Clearly you disagree with him, as is your right, but I wonder why your view is the opposite of his.

The reason his face in the article is covered is to prevent any comeback from his own people as they are likely to be prone to extreme discrimination if they have found one of their own wanting to join the IDF!!
Perhaps so, but that would also apply if the joined an armoured regiment, the infantry, engineers, transport …. It is not specific to the policy of the Israeli Air Force.
 
#11
Chinggis said:
The RAF does not have a policy that considers a proportion of the British population to be a security risk based only on their ethnicity or religion.
The RAF is considerably luckier then the IAF in that respect. As pointed out, the IDF issue is not about an arab muslim citizen joining the services but what they can do within them. You keep pointing out that Jews can serve anywhere within the IDF, I can categorically tell you that this is not the case due to security issues also.
Clearly there were security issues with this arab volunteer joining the IAF.

Clearly you disagree with him, as is your right, but I wonder why your view is the opposite of his.
There have been numerous incidents of terror groups emanating from the Israeli arab population. These are not isolated incidents. There stance is definitely not pro-Israel, hence the rarity of them volunteering to serve.

Perhaps so, but that would also apply if the joined an armoured regiment, the infantry, engineers, transport …. It is not specific to the policy of the Israeli Air Force.
My point was that the Israeli arabs do not align themselves with Israel, they do not see themselves a part of the country, and they bring with them more security issues for Israel then they solve.
 
#12
Arik said:
[
My point was that the Israeli arabs do not align themselves with Israel, they do not see themselves a part of the country, and they bring with them more security issues for Israel then they solve.
A sweeping generalisation that flies in direct contradiction to everything we know about this kid. I am somewhat glad to see that, in the course of his last few posts, Arik at least is willing to acknowledge that Israel is an Apartheid state.
 
#13
You keep pointing out that Jews can serve anywhere within the IDF
Actually, I didn't say that, I just made that point that restrictions are applied to Arabs.

Clearly there were security issues with this arab volunteer joining the IAF.
Clearly the IAF consider being an Arab to be a security issue, even if that Arab is an Israeli citizen.

My point was that the Israeli arabs do not align themselves with Israel, they do not see themselves a part of the country, and they bring with them more security issues for Israel then they solve.
All the Israeli Arabs? The officer in question takes a different view.
 
#14
In the UK we can't even trust certain members of ethnic minorities, although born here of parents who were probably born here, to support the England Cricket Team!! :) Maybe Arik has a point notwithstanding certain unpleasant aspects of Israeli society.
 
#15
crabtastic said:
A sweeping generalisation that flies in direct contradiction to everything we know about this kid..
What do you know about this kid? Does your 9 years service (albeit as an officer) in the RAF looking after a gate, give you a good insight into pilot vetting in the IAF? Or does your PhD give you that power?

crabtastic said:
I am somewhat glad to see that, in the course of his last few posts, Arik at least is willing to acknowledge that Israel is an Apartheid state.
Ah, the patronising Crab, was wondering when you would appear. Where did I acknowledge that Israel had apartheid policies? Are you going to start some more Israel bashing?
 
#16
Chinggis said:
Clearly the IAF consider being an Arab to be a security issue, even if that Arab is an Israeli citizen.
Of course, however, security issues are not just concerning arabs, but the full spectrum of military inductees regardless of ethnicity. If there is any doubt as to the security integrity of an inductee, he will serve in a unit accordingly.

Chinggis said:
All the Israeli Arabs? The officer in question takes a different view.
He is entitled to that opinion, that is why Israel is a democracy.
 
#17
Arik said:
Chinggis said:
Can't blame them for saying no.
Why not? It’s racial discrimination isn’t it?

They refused to give the lad a chance, despite him being “loyal to the State”, simply because he’s an Arab and a Muslim. Perhaps they should be honest and change their name from Israeli Air Force to Jewish Air Force.
Go and put a complaint in to the CRE!! Fortunately, the Israeli defence establishment has not been too affected by PC so far (although it is going that way). Like I said, previously it is not only Israeli arabs who cannot get onto these prestigous courses due to background.

Chinggis - Israel is a Jewish state, that is what it was founded for, with minorities within it. These minorities also serve with honour. Arabs and muslims serve within the IDF, if they were unacceptable they would not be allowed to serve, they also receive equal treatment in service and have attained command rank.

Best of luck to this kid, he can show his mettle in the Armour Corps.
And good luck to the lad, too. For my money the Israelis can do what they want with their own Army - I wouldn't expect a passing member of the Golani Brigades to make any trechant points about the way we treat, for example, our Commonwealth comrades when serving in the British Army. One can have views on some of the policies of the State without necessarily seeing everything about the State as wicked or racist.

That said, a close professional colleague was a (British) immigrant aged about 16 to the State of Israel and he managed both to serve in a fairly sensitive unit and then have a long career with the ISA - do those count as less sensitive than jockeying an F-16 around? At least one other colleague is a Druze, who made it to a substantially senior rank, again in a sensitive capacity. Both count themselves as Israelis, they're certainly rude enough.

I'm a touch concerned at the increasingly free equation Jewish=Israeli=Zionist. Three entirely separate things. The one thing which is in common is that the State of Israel, ever since its foundation - and don't let's forget which former Mandate power did what it could to set it up to fail* - is explicitly a Jewish State.


*Yeah, I know the history - the King David Hotel, the hanged sergeants, the IZL and the Stern Gang and all that - but I also know about the shiploads of Holocaust survivors being turned back and the concentration camp veterans coming over all nostalgic at the way they were treated in detention in Cyprus and elsewhere.
 
#18
Glad_its_all_over said:
.....That said, a close professional colleague was a (British) immigrant aged about 16 to the State of Israel and he managed both to serve in a fairly sensitive unit and then have a long career with the ISA - do those count as less sensitive than jockeying an F-16 around? At least one other colleague is a Druze, who made it to a substantially senior rank, again in a sensitive capacity. Both count themselves as Israelis, they're certainly rude enough.
It would be very rare for a foreigner to get into the very top grade, there are a few exceptions. I know plenty of guys who wanted to go to various top units, with the relevant criteria physically & mentally but never got the security clearances. Of probably several hundred a year, may be a handful get to the creme de la creme.
That is no surprise about the Druze, they are fully fledged citizens and extremely loyal to the state, have served alongside them and had much to do with them - top guys.
 
#19
I'm a touch concerned at the increasingly free equation Jewish=Israeli=Zionist. Three entirely separate things.
Two entirely separate things, I would say. Judaism is a religion, which people can believe in irrespective of their nationality. Israel and Zionism are inextricably linked, though. Ever since the First Zionist Congress in 1897, the aim of the Zionist movement has been the creation an maintenance of Israel as a political and religious entity. Without Zionism there would be no Israel, and without Zionism it’s likely that the surviving European Jews who wanted to leave Europe in 1945 would have gone to the USA, which at the time had a larger Jewish population than did Palestine under the British Mandate.

The one thing which is in common is that the State of Israel, ever since its foundation - is explicitly a Jewish State.
Indeed, which rather contradicts the assertion that Israel is “largely secular”.
 
#20
Chinggis said:
The one thing which is in common is that the State of Israel, ever since its foundation - is explicitly a Jewish State.
Indeed, which rather contradicts the assertion that Israel is “largely secular”.
If you go over there, you will see that the majority of Israelis are secular / westernised / non-observant, etc.

There is no contradiction - It is rather like saying that Britain is a Christian country, the Queen as Head of State also heads the church, however, largely the British population is non-practising / secular (i.e. non-churchgoers, etc). I hope that clarifies it for you.
 

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