Israel to transfer arms to ... Palestinians.

Discussion in 'Current Affairs, News and Analysis' started by KGB_resident, May 25, 2006.

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    ... and Israelis do their best to discredit him.
  2. Maybe these 'moderates' will have some influence eventually (if they can be trusted ;-)): Link
  3. Vigil!

    I know one man here in Moscow - blonde, slightly fat, typical Russian with sky blue eyes. Recently he with his wife visited her relatives in Israel. On the streets of 'ghettos', in Russian pubs he (formally foreigner) was regarded as 'one of us' while Israelis from North Africa were viewed by Russian speakers as martians (or very close to it). He heard a very interesting opinion that the main problem of Israel is not Palestinians, the border but ultra-orthodoxes. Later or sooner Israel will become (according to the opinion) an theocratic state and many will have to flee (in Russia for example).
  4. Thats the point KGB. Both sides are bing driven by the agenda of equally mental religous extremists.

    Why they can't learn to be the 'bigger man' i'll never know.
  5. Lot of the problem is from the religious nutters, then again, if the BBC is anything to go by a lot of those nutters are americans, brits or russians who went over for religious reasons, spoken to a few Israeli's recently and most seemed to be russian immigrants or offspring of older russian immigrants.

    Doubt Israel will become a theocracy though, us Jews are far to argumentative to allow any one rabbi have his own way. The problem is PR and the low watershed that I believe they have, get rid of that or raise the % and the fundies lose a lot of influence (far more than the # of votes they recieve should allow), should be part of the peace process.

    As for Russian views on Indians/Pakistani's? We've a few russians and poles here working on a building site, ended up chatting to one on the way home and his views on Pakistani's and Indians (I doubt he knew nor cared about the difference) was rather extreme and shocking to be honest, extremely racist.
  6. You are absolutely right. The Russians are maybe the most notorious racists and xenophobes. It is a bitter reality. The propaganda of internationalism in Soviet times was resultless, moreover had rather a back effect.
  7. KGBR - With all due respect, you dont have talk a load of b*ll*x sometimes. The Russians came over in droves in the '90's. Some with good intentions to start a new life as Jews (which they were restricted from doing before the fall of the wall in Berlin). However, and this is to the discredit of the Israeli govt. they allowed in a large proportion of Russians who saw Israel as a stepping stone to the West, and as ana side this also brought over the Russian mafia. Many Russian immigrants get too much state aid and do choose to exclude themselves from society. However, on the other side of the coin, a good proportion of Russian immigrants are mixing in now or at least their children are. Another sinister side to letting in all & sundry, is that there are groups of Russian neo-Nazi types in Israel now!! Go figure, even serving in the army (ref incident 6-12 months ago)!!
    Ref the ultra orthodox, again you talk nonsense, because the people on this site will envision black hats and beards, who would turn Israel into a theocracy if they were to win an election. However, the vast proportion of observant Jews in Israel are just that observant and not ultra-orthodox.
    KGBR - Do yourself a favour, and buy a plane ticket and have a holiday in Israel. I will even show you around! :D
  8. I agree with Arik here. The ultra orthodox Jews (the black hatted lot) are a minority who have little or no chance of taking over the country via the ballot box. They account for less than 10% of the population. Another 25% are Israeli Arabs who may or may not be Palestinians but who are Israeli citizens and have the right to vote. Of the rest, I'd say there is a roughly equal split between observant Jews (blokes identified by the little skull cap - Kippah) and secular Jews (often to be found living it up in the nightclubs of Tel Aviv). These last two groups have little in common with the ultra orthodox other than by being Jewish. As I've said in a previous post, the majority of ultra orthodox do not do military service, claiming it interrupts their Torah studies. This, probably more than anything else alienates them from a society where everyone else, whether willing or not, does their porridge in the IDF. While they do weild a degree of power in controlling Rabbinical Law they have no chance of taking over the country.
  9. Oh I don't know, you'd be surprised what power religious minorities can wield over the majority of folk given the correct circumstances... Just look at UK for example.

    Having said that, living near a very large Orthodox Jewish community in my home town I have noted the sheer lack of crime and social problems from them. If only other religious groups in UK followed their example.
  10. To return to the original thread giving arms to the Palestinians, if true, is a very pragmatic step for the Israelis. President Abbas is a man they can deal with (he met the new foreign minister Tzipi Livni last week) and is slated to meet Olmert soon. The majority of the Palestinian Security Services (National Security Force, Preventative Security Organization and Police) come under the Ministry of Interior ie Hamas. They number some 65,000. Only the Presidential Guard, Force 17 (Arafat's old bodyguard) and General Intelligence, these number less than 10,000. Although many of all these forces are loyal to the President there are many hamas sympathisers in the ranks.

    There is no alternative to Abbas, he has no viable deputy or successor and Olmert will not talk to Hamas. If Abbas falls there is no alternative and this makes keeping him alive a top priority. If a few extra weapons given to his Presidential Guard helps then that must be a good thing.
  11. It would be a dangerous trip Arik (I mean Ukrainian missile). And It is sufficient to read Israeli newspapers. Let's look at today's Yediot Ahronot,7340,L-3255362,00.html

    So, many want to see Israel as a theocratic state. And secular marrigies are not allowed in Israel, only religious ones. It is a clear mark of a theocratic state.

    More important that religious extremists want power and are armed. Armed civilians on the streets... Have you seen something like this in the UK?

  12. OK, since it's inception Israel's law (founded secularly on British & Turkish law in the main), allowed for certain areas to remain the domain of the orthodox. One of these happens to be marriage. HOWEVER, this is set to change, considering the declining level of marriages taking place in Israel due to the large proportion of the population being SECULAR.

    Be sensible, the UK and Israel have different internal security concerns one cannot equate their situations. Refer to weapon ownership in Israel. In order to have a firearms certificate in general terms one must either be living in the territories and is issued for self defence only, and also if your work takes you to the territories (subject to various checks etc). HOWEVER, sometimes one sees Israelis in the pre-67 part of the country, they are either what you would call 'settlers' passing though (with 'longs') or soldiers on leave or reserves but out of uniform. This is a VERY common site as for security reason soldiers will carry weapons in order to report back to base immediately, etc in case of emergencies / or to provide immediate assistance if they are (per chance) at the scene of an incident.
    Additionally, coach groups e.g. school trips, tours, etc will always have an armed guard, sometimes he may have a concealed weapon and sometimes not.
    Just imagine the amount of weapons on civil and miltary issue in such a small country, want to equate it to the UK now?
    All this aside, most Israelis I know do not carry weapons as civilians and do not wish to do so, although in their army service a fair few apply for licenses in order to have pistols.
  13. Arik!

    We should trust you. So Israel is not heading toward theocratic state. OK. Good!
  14. Sergey wrote:

    More important that religious extremists want power and are armed. Armed civilians on the streets... Have you seen something like this in the UK?

    Only armed with suicide bombs Sergey.
  15. Nope, wouldn't have any problems with it though, however, replace the Israeli flag with the Union Jack and the Welsh flag please.