Israel Palestinian Ceasefire in the Gaza Strip

[Sven]

Just reported on the News part of Sunday AM.

I was going to pose the question - will it last, and if not who will be the authors of its downfall. And then I found this when looking for a link on the original story.

 

[DrStealth]

Rocket fire threatens Gaza truce

Palestinian militants have fired rockets into Israel, hours after an unexpected ceasefire was called between the two sides.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6184882.stm

'truce', when applied to the situation in Israel/Palestine it must be some version of the word that i'm not familiar with.

 

[Arandale]

Ceasefire – What Ceasefire?

Try living where a good friend of mine does on Kibbutz Nahal Oz and you soon lose all silly notions of there being a ceasefire!

Don and his wife are not combatants, they are pensioners and civilians and they reside on a Kibbutz that stands within the pre 1967 Israeli borders which I would remind you stands behind the borders that the Quartet Road Map envisages coming into being with the imposition of a Palestinian State.

Here’s what Don recently said about his situation there “In the last 2 weeks I have had 4 kassams landing about 100 to 200 yards from me and many more then 200 yards but close enough to hear them land and see the smoke. We have been very lucky and so has Sedrot until this pass week with 2 dead and one 24 year old man who lost both his legs.”

These crude missiles are fired with the explicit purpose of killing and maiming civilians.

No sooner did the supposed ceasefire come into force than five Kassam’s were fired at Israel and AFTER Israel had honoured an agreement to withdraw all IDF forces from Gaza.

When the Palestinians make such ‘gestures’ you can be certain that its because the counter action being taken by the IDF is having a painful direct effect on the terror factions and inhibit their abilities to go about their business.

Ceasefire in Palestinian parlance means you stop taking defensive and retaliatory actions and withdraw all your personnel while we continue to reserve the right to murder your civilian population with impunity.
When such people show such determination to slaughter you regardless and are impervious to international calls to find a solution then you’re left with but one option -

 

[Sven]

And yet Ormert says Israel will show patience and restraint - a little different from Your "one option", eh Arandale

 

[whitecity]

In the wee hours of Thursday night/Friday morning, the World Service was running news reports and discussions of a meeting between militant factions in Gaza and the West Bank, who - it alleged - had agreed to halt the rocket attacks if Israel pulled out of Gaza and halted military reprisals. They were planning to put the proposal to Abbas that morning. I saw nothing on the website, nor any media, so forgot about it...

Now, it's all well and good jumping on the old bandwagon that the Palestinians are to blame for everything, but read again the link that you yourselves have linked to. Not only does it say,

Palestinian militants have fired rockets into Israel, hours after an unexpected ceasefire was called between the two sides.

as Stealth pointed out, but it also says,

Hamas' armed wing said it launched the attacks because some Israeli troops were still in Gaza, east of the town of Jabaliya, despite the Israelis saying they had pulled out all their troops overnight.

which is an old trick of Israel's - announce they have done something, when they haven't. Are you aware they are STILL occupying part of Lebanon that they grabbed this summer! All the time they are accusing everybody else of not adhering to UNSCR 1701, they deliberatly keep that bit quiet...

Anyway, back to Gaza, and the Palestinian response to their own rocket launches,

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meanwhile has ordered his security forces to deploy across northern Gaza and enforce the ceasefire, Palestinian security sources said.

which, if true, is the correct and proper response - taking charge and being responsible for their own security and territory.

Nevertheless, it is good to see that the IDF is indeed showing restraint - although it would be nice for them to withdraw back inside the pre-1967 where they belong - and giving the Palestinian Authority time and space to try and resolve this internally.

 

[Sven]

Do You have proof of the IDF still being in the Lebanon and in Gaza - they are certainly denying the latter.

I would prefer the source to be accreditted rather than some blog

 

[whitecity]

Do You have proof of the IDF still being in the Lebanon and in Gaza - they are certainly denying the latter.

Do you have proof that the IDF has completely vacated Gaza in its entirety?

Just what is proof? The Palestinian Authority/Hamas, reported by the BBC, claim that the IDF were/are still in Gaza at the time of the rocket attack. The IDF, as reported by the JPost et al, claim they had/have left. Neither of which is proof of anything.

As regards to Lebanon,

IDF withdraws from most of the surrounding area of Ghajar village this afternoon

On 07 November, UNIFIL Force Commander Major Gen Alain Pellegrini met with senior officers from the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) and the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) at the UN Position at the border crossing at Ras Al Naqoura.

It was agreed that the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw their forces from most of the surrounding area of Ghajar village today. UNIFIL will carry out intensive patrolling and set up temporary checkpoints in the specified area to confirm that the IDF were no longer present there.

(The IDF is still present inside the northern part of the village of Ghajar and the immediate vicinity, inside Lebanese territory.)

UNIFIL Force Commander Major-General Alain Pellegrini said: “I welcome the IDF withdrawal from the area around Ghajar. I hope that we will reach an agreement very soon for full IDF withdrawal from Lebanese territory, in accordance with UN Security Council Resolution 1701, including the northern part of Ghajar village.”

This is the official UNIFIL press release of 7 November. There has been no subsequent presse release or statement suggesting that the situation has changed. You may wish to call the General a liar. I don't.

I would prefer the source to be accreditted rather than some blog

When have I ever used a "some blog" to support my positions, comments or provide evidence?

[hr]
PS. Still waiting for your sources, accreditted or not, on this subject/thread:

Most of the information I have to hand seems to point to the opposite, in that most of the insurgency comes from international sources.

 

[Sven]

Selective reading Merkator???

Hamas' armed wing said it launched the attacks because some Israeli troops were still in Gaza, east of the town of Jabaliya, despite the Israelis saying they had pulled out all their troops overnight.

A statement from the smaller Islamic Jihad group said it would not agree to a ceasefire while Israeli military activity continued in the occupied West Bank.

Does not equal

Just what is proof? The Palestinian Authority/Hamas.....

Indeed, according to the Beeb reporter

the ceasefire violations have been condemned by a Hamas government spokesman

.

As ever, an action is agreed and some Palestinian or other deliberately goes and queers the pitch


As to the UNIFIL report, the way I read it is that the IDF are still in the process of pulling out, and not refusing to leave as You seemed to infer

 

[whitecity]

Selective reading Merkator???

Hamas' armed wing said it launched the attacks because some Israeli troops were still in Gaza, east of the town of Jabaliya, despite the Israelis saying they had pulled out all their troops overnight.

A statement from the smaller Islamic Jihad group said it would not agree to a ceasefire while Israeli military activity continued in the occupied West Bank.

Does not equal

Just what is proof? The Palestinian Authority/Hamas.....

Indeed, according to the Beeb reporter

the ceasefire violations have been condemned by a Hamas government spokesman

.
As ever, an action is agreed and some Palestinian or other deliberately goes and queers the pitch

What are you smoking tonight Sven???

You asked,

Do You have proof of the IDF still being in the Lebanon and in Gaza - they are certainly denying the latter.

and I replied,

Do you have proof that the IDF has completely vacated Gaza in its entirety?

Just what is proof? The Palestinian Authority/Hamas, reported by the BBC, claim that the IDF were/are still in Gaza at the time of the rocket attack. The IDF, as reported by the JPost et al, claim they had/have left. Neither of which is proof of anything.

What am I saying is quite simple, NEITHER OF US has, or can provide, PROOF one way or another.

So what has that got to do with, "Selective reading", I ask? Moreover, what has your wibble about Islamic Jihad got to do with the price of potatoes, let alone proof of, or not of, a complete IDF withdrawal from Gaza?

If you wish to discuss some other point, such as (irrelevant) Islamic Jihad demands for linkages, then please go ahead and make your pitch.

[hr]

As to the UNIFIL report, the way I read it is that the IDF are still in the process of pulling out, and not refusing to leave as You seemed to infer

I was not infering anything of the sort. However, if it makes you happy, I will go one step further and state, not infer, that the IDF is refusing to abide by the conditions of UNSCR 1701 which demands their withdrawal from the territory of sovereign Lebanon.

Upon full cessation of hostilities, calls upon the government of Lebanon and UNIFIL as authorised by paragraph 11 to deploy their forces together throughout the South and calls upon the government of Israel, as that deployment begins, to withdraw all of its forces from southern Lebanon in parallel;

The resolution was approved on 11 August, it did indeed take some time for UNIFIL to get into position, and so the IDF could make a case for continued occupation for a while. But, UNIFIL and Lebanese troops are in a position, and have been for some time, to deploy into all areas. They are prevented from doing so by the refusal of the IDF to withdraw.

Now what was I originally trying to infer? Oh yes. Do you think that Israel is a little two-faced in complaining about various transgressions by others of UNSCR 1701, when they are themselves in blatant breach of the terms? Ask yourself honestly Sven, did you think that the IDF had fully withdrawn - and that this is news to you?

Both of these are perfect examples of all sides in the Eastern Meditterranean prediliction of playing the blame game rather than making the hard choices that lead to peace.

 

[tomahawk6]

The rocket attacks continue despite a "ceasefire". Its clear the Palestinian factions have no desire for peace otherwise the rocket attacks would cease and they would move on to repatriating Cpl Shalit. Hamas and friends have been converting Gaza into a mini-South Lebanon complete with fortifications and have plenty of Kornet anti-tank weapons and rockets. Unlike south Lebanon Israel could overrun Gaza in much less than 30 days.

 

[DrStealth]

Unlike south Lebanon Israel could overrun Gaza in much less than 30 days.

then what? totally occupy it for good? prison the people in thier own homes? or kick them all out into the sinai? (bit of the old ethnic cleansing)

Israel has 'overrun' gaza several times.

invasion and occupation are too totaly different things.

eg -
-Soviets in afganistan
-US in vietnam ('we wernt allowed to win, all we had to do was invade the north', i hear that a lot)
-and todays situation in Iraq.

 

[Arik]

.....then what? totally occupy it for good? prison the people in thier own homes? or kick them all out into the sinai? (bit of the old ethnic cleansing)

Israel has 'overrun' gaza several times.
.....

Occupation (long term) is out of the question, the choice for that was effectively ended with unilateral withdrawal. 'Imprisonment' and 'transfer' are not options either, for moral reasons, etc.

IMHO - repeated military actions are the type of activity that will remain in vogue for the foreseeable future, with limited periods of taking areas, clearing them of militants / terrorists and withdrawal. No solution here either political or military until the Kassams really stop.

 

[whitecity]

.....then what? totally occupy it for good? prison the people in thier own homes? or kick them all out into the sinai? (bit of the old ethnic cleansing)

Israel has 'overrun' gaza several times.
.....

Occupation (long term) is out of the question, the choice for that was effectively ended with unilateral withdrawal. 'Imprisonment' and 'transfer' are not options either, for moral reasons, etc.

IMHO - repeated military actions are the type of activity that will remain in vogue for the foreseeable future, with limited periods of taking areas, clearing them of militants / terrorists and withdrawal. No solution here either political or military until the Kassams really stop.

With great sadness, I have to agree with this. There is simply so little will on either side to compromise, the only realistic future in the short and medium term is more of the same.

 

[Sven]

Merkator

The fact that the rocket attacks were condemned by the Hamas government is not proof that they happened??? Evidence given by those on the receiving end - as shown on Channel 4 and the Beeb is not conclusive???

My point - that there is incontravertable proof that the Palestinians violated the ceasefire - there is no evidence that the IDF did.

As to the IDF in the Lebanon - does 1701 give a timeline for withdrawal??? Have the IDF proceeded with any troop withdrawals - have Hezbollah proceeded with disarming??? Indeed, just how many troops are left in the Lebanon and how many Hezbollah missiles

 

[whitecity]

The fact that the rocket attacks were condemned by the Hamas government is not proof that they happened??? Evidence given by those on the receiving end - as shown on Channel 4 and the Beeb is not conclusive???

My point - that there is incontravertable proof that the Palestinians violated the ceasefire - there is no evidence that the IDF did.

Fair enough, but not at all evident from your previous posts.

Now, do you agree that if IDF forces were indeed still inside Gaza after 6am local Sunday - in breach of the ceasefire agreement - then they should receive equal condemnation as the Palestinians?

As a side note, this is looking promising: BBC Online

[hr]

As to the IDF in the Lebanon - does 1701 give a timeline for withdrawal???

Yes. See above.

Have the IDF proceeded with any troop withdrawals - have Hezbollah proceeded with disarming???

Yes in part and hmmmm. Hezbollah has ceased rocket fire into Israel and has ceased violent military operations in southern Lebanon. Not all the way there yet, but certainly looking good.

Indeed, just how many troops are left in the Lebanon and how many Hezbollah missiles

Your point being? If you want to make an arguement that it's OK for the IDF to remain in Lebanon all the time that somebody claims Hezbollah has not yet fully disarmed, then you can make the very same argument that it's perfectly acceptable for Hezbollah to refuse to disarm until the IDF withdraws fully and itself disarms... Which is clearly no good for the longterm peace and security of the region.

 

[Sven]

Merkator

Gosh, we're starting to agree - on some things. Your side note for instance.

With regards to the IDF in Gaza in breach of cease fire - if they were there deliberately flaunting the cease fire then Yes -tey should be condemned. If they were there because their transporter had broken down etc then no - one should always make exceptions for times like this.

Can't find a final date in your posts which puts Israel in breach, will have another look after posting this. Yes, Hezbollah has stopped firing on Israel but 1701 demanded complete disarming - didn't it??

Which brings me onto Your last point. No I am not suggesting that Israel remains until Hezbollah completely disarms - the job of disarming the terrorists is now down to UNIFIL. My point is that Israel has to the greatest extent removed their forces (how many remain in Lebanon???) whilst Hezbollah haven't handed ANY of their rocket systems over - unless You know different

 

[whitecity]

Merkator

Gosh, we're starting to agree - on some things. Your side note for instance.

With regards to the IDF in Gaza in breach of cease fire - if they were there deliberately flaunting the cease fire then Yes -tey should be condemned. If they were there because their transporter had broken down etc then no - one should always make exceptions for times like this.

I'm sure if we met face-2-face over a beer or three, we'd quickly find out that there was/is infinitely more that we agree on than disagree on.



Continuing the Lebanese aspect of this post in the other thread running.

 

[Sven]

Merkator

Gosh, we're starting to agree - on some things. Your side note for instance.

With regards to the IDF in Gaza in breach of cease fire - if they were there deliberately flaunting the cease fire then Yes -tey should be condemned. If they were there because their transporter had broken down etc then no - one should always make exceptions for times like this.

I'm sure if we met face-2-face over a beer or three, we'd quickly find out that there was/is infinitely more that we agree on than disagree on.



Continuing the Lebanese aspect of this post in the other thread running.

Sometime, in the future, it is a date

 

[low-profile]

the arabs, the moslem arabs, the shia moslem arabs of gaza, ho hum.

 

[Arandale]

Unlike south Lebanon Israel could overrun Gaza in much less than 30 days.

then what? totally occupy it for good? prison the people in thier own homes? or kick them all out into the sinai? (bit of the old ethnic cleansing)

Israel has 'overrun' gaza several times.

invasion and occupation are too totaly different things.

eg -
-Soviets in afganistan
-US in vietnam ('we wernt allowed to win, all we had to do was invade the north', i hear that a lot)
-and todays situation in Iraq.

Israel could overrun Gaza in much less than 30 days? More like 3 days if the will and determination is there with spineless non Jewish Olmert.

Then what, totally occupy Gaza for good? YES absolutely and why not? Regardless, it would not involve imprisoning people in their homes, this time Israel should follow the advice tendered by the various agencies that peace is not attainable with these people, therefore only a manufactured transfer will suffice.

the false promises of Oslo saw Israel embrace these killers close to their hearts believing peace was possible, its not so its time to mount a full military operation - to suppress terror and degrade the ability to missile innocent civilians INSIDE the pre-1967 border and prevent the abduction of soldiers from INSIDE the pre-1967 borders.

Show Israel means busness and witness these people tranferring themselves in their thousands to Jordan and Egypt - perhaps at least this way if there are any 'ordinary Palstinian civilians families amnogst them, they will be able to access real facilities and services previously denied to them!

Peace, tranfer or regional war, these are the stark choices!