Israel mulls UK call to charge IDF troops

#1
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/890319.html

Attorney General Menachem Mazuz will thoroughly examine the British government's demand that Israeli soldiers be indicted for murder, in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003, Israel promised London over the weekend.
...
Peter Goldsmith, Britain's attorney general at the time of the incident, wrote Mazuz on June 26 requesting he clarify what he termed new information. He said that if Mazuz did not respond within six weeks, legal proceedings would be launched in Britain against the commander of the force that shot Miller, and who was cleared in a disciplinary hearing, as well as other soldiers and officers. This would necessitate seeking the soldiers' extradition under the Israel-Britain extradition treaty.
Do you think that our Israeli friends would extradict the commander? Personally I think that rather the Martians would extradict somebody to the UK.

The British Foreign Office told Miller's family that Israel thinks the dispute can be resolved by payment of compensation to Miller's widow. However, Lyall Grant told Prosor, the proposed compensation will have to be increased substantially from the sum on offer until now.

Miller's brother, John, told Haaretz on Sunday that the sum Israel is currently offering is "insulting," equal to only two years of the slain photographer's earnings.
So Israel agrees that the killing took place. The criminal is well known. It is not dim, unclear suppositions but proven fact.

At the time the IDF expressed its sorrow for Miller's death and said that "the entry of photographers into war zones during exchanges of fire endangers both sides."

However, according to eyewitnesses, there had been calm in the area at the time of the shooting.
 

Bugly

War Hero
#2
An IDF spokesperson made the following statement after Miller's death: "The IDF expresses sorrow at the death of the cameraman who entered a combat zone. Cameramen who knowingly enter a combat zone endanger themselves as well as the troops, and clearly run the risk of being caught in the crossfire." An IDF spokesperson described the circumstances of his death as occurring during "an operation taking place at night, in which the [Israeli] force was under fire and in which the force returned fire with light weapons."


Miller's brother, John, told Haaretz on Sunday that the sum Israel is currently offering is "insulting," equal to only two years of the slain photographer's earnings.
So the family are only after more money, the soldier concerned has already been dicsiplined.
 
#3
Bugly said:
An IDF spokesperson made the following statement after Miller's death: "The IDF expresses sorrow at the death of the cameraman who entered a combat zone. Cameramen who knowingly enter a combat zone endanger themselves as well as the troops, and clearly run the risk of being caught in the crossfire." An IDF spokesperson described the circumstances of his death as occurring during "an operation taking place at night, in which the [Israeli] force was under fire and in which the force returned fire with light weapons."


Miller's brother, John, told Haaretz on Sunday that the sum Israel is currently offering is "insulting," equal to only two years of the slain photographer's earnings.
So the family are only after more money, the soldier concerned has already been dicsiplined.
Disciplined... in Israel. No, he should face a trial in the UK and British court will decide his fate. What do our Israeli friends fear? If the soldier is not guilty then after 3-4 years in the lovely British jail he would be released... maybe.
 
#4
KGB_resident said:
....Disciplined... in Israel. No, he should face a trial in the UK and British court will decide his fate. ....
Why? Do allied serviceman awaiting courts martial for illegal / wrong killings in Iraq or Afghanistan go to trial in those countries under their judicial systems? The US troops who killed the UK journalist in the opening days of Iraq war 2003 should they stand trial in the UK also?? Russsian soldiers awaiting courts martial for illegal killings in Chechnya do not face Chechnyan courts. Why should the standards be different in this case??

KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
 
#5
Why In Britain ???

" in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003 "

He was in a conflict Zone, In a forgein country
 
#7
legally: though there is a treaty of extradition between israel and uk, meaning uk can petition for extradition of a uk citizen in israel for an alleged crime comitted in uk, and vice versa, i do not know that the treaty covers the situation now being looked at. advice?

operationally: believe it or not, israel actually has an army, not a bunch of terrorists. and armies think like armies. israeli soldiers are issued with printed rules of engagement. just like most armies i know of.

the rules of engagement seem to follow geneva convention, laws of war etc., etc.. (though orders of the day, as anywhere, can adjust roe's generally or operationally).

i just wonder if the deceased, an accomplished military journalist?, was willfully ignorant of ROE's, equating an army with a bunch of terrorists, in deliberately putting himself in harm's way? that is: was and is there a hidden agenda?
 
#8
KGB Resident is vainly trying to compare this event with the Litvinenko case, through the extradition requests. He is, I believe, trying to say something like, "Why are you so hard on Russia and not Israel?"

Also, coupled with his usual Israel Muck raking. He's a pleasent chap.
 
#9
DesktopCommando said:
Why In Britain ???

" in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003 "

He was in a conflict Zone, In a forgein country
James Millier was killed in Gaza not in Israel. As Palestinian state has not been created then the only legetimate place for trial is the UK.

Bugly said:
Arik said:
KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
Same as Taz_786, he doesn't like Jews.
I like noble Jewish people - nice, talented, inventive.

Arik, it is an important theme, intersting for ARSSErs. Absolutely innocent British citizen was killed. It is a cause for concern. It is important to prevent tragedies of this type.

Btw, do you support possible extradition of the suspect?
 
#10
KGB_resident said:
DesktopCommando said:
Why In Britain ???

" in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003 "

He was in a conflict Zone, In a forgein country
James Millier was killed in Gaza not in Israel. As Palestinian state has not been created then the only legetimate place for trial is the UK.
And your point is? Are you saying that a trial in Hamas 'Palestine' would be unfair? :D
Miller was working in a conflict zone and was tragically killed like so many other journalists in similar areas. Why would you say that Israel is not a 'legitimate' place for a trial and that the UK was?

KGB_resident said:
Bugly said:
Arik said:
KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
Same as Taz_786, he doesn't like Jews.
I like noble Jewish people - nice, talented, inventive
Thank you for that, unfortunately I missed out on that part of the DNA chain.

KGB_resident said:
Arik, it is an important theme, intersting for ARSSErs. Absolutely innocent British citizen was killed. It is a cause for concern. It is important to prevent tragedies of this type.

Btw, do you support possible extradition of the suspect?
I will rise to your question. The answer would be no, the soldier was operating under the IDF (the legal military of the State), he broke the rules and like any soldier in any formal military he should face the justice of the military penal system.
 
#11
low-profile said:
operationally: believe it or not, israel actually has an army, not a bunch of terrorists. and armies think like armies. israeli soldiers are issued with printed rules of engagement. just like most armies i know of.

the rules of engagement seem to follow geneva convention, laws of war etc., etc.. (though orders of the day, as anywhere, can adjust roe's generally or operationally).

i just wonder if the deceased, an accomplished military journalist?, was willfully ignorant of ROE's, equating an army with a bunch of terrorists, in deliberately putting himself in harm's way? that is: was and is there a hidden agenda?
I don't know if you've seen the footage- it was shown on C4's Death In Gaza- but James Miller and Saira Shah stopped, raised their hands above their heads, and shouted 'we're from English television'. They didn't move at all in the long pause before he was shot dead (by a Bedouin Arab, btw).

Or do you think he consciously chose to be murdered as part of a 'hidden agenda'? What is that, 'method journalism'?
 
#12
Arik said:
KGB_resident said:
DesktopCommando said:
Why In Britain ???

" in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003 "

He was in a conflict Zone, In a forgein country
James Millier was killed in Gaza not in Israel. As Palestinian state has not been created then the only legetimate place for trial is the UK.
And your point is? Are you saying that a trial in Hamas 'Palestine' would be unfair? :D
Miller was working in a conflict zone and was tragically killed like so many other journalists in similar areas. Why would you say that Israel is not a 'legitimate' place for a trial and that the UK was?
Arik. Once our dear PTP proposed me to use quote marks then I joke, write something ironical.
I confess, I'm guilty. Too often I write something provocative. Really I think that a soldier (even former) should not be extradicted. and this rule is universal for any country.

So British prosecutors don't understand very simple things. Their extradiction request will never be realised.

Arik said:
KGB_resident said:
Bugly said:
Arik said:
KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
Same as Taz_786, he doesn't like Jews.
I like noble Jewish people - nice, talented, inventive
Thank you for that, unfortunately I missed out on that part of the DNA chain.
Absolutely disagree. It is impossible to hide two things - intellect and stupidity. Unfortunately in fact I haven't Jewish ancestors except maybe my Gran-Grand-Father who maybe was a baptised Jew (or maybe not).

Arik said:
KGB_resident said:
Arik, it is an important theme, intersting for ARSSErs. Absolutely innocent British citizen was killed. It is a cause for concern. It is important to prevent tragedies of this type.

Btw, do you support possible extradition of the suspect?
I will rise to your question. The answer would be no, the soldier was operating under the IDF (the legal military of the State), he broke the rules and like any soldier in any formal military he should face the justice of the military penal system.
As you see I absolutely agree with you. Excuse me for provocative previous posts.
 
#13
Rumpelstiltskin said:
.....I don't know if you've seen the footage- it was shown on C4's Death In Gaza- but James Miller and Saira Shah stopped, raised their hands above their heads, and shouted 'we're from English television'. They didn't move at all in the long pause before he was shot dead (by a Bedouin Arab, btw)...
I dont now remember all the points of the case but a) I think it was a night operation and b) the soldier shot him from within an armoured vehicle. These would of impacted on visuals and also whatever the journalists may of shouted would of been muffled. The case against the soldier would of been based on whether the soldier had followed the RoE / guidelines correctly or not.
 
#14
Bugly said:
Arik said:
KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
Same as Taz_786, he doesn't like Jews.

Don't forget he tries his best with Americans too.
 
#15
Los Angeles Times, Sunday, 17 Sept, MOSCOW:

They call it bespredel--literally, "no limits." It means acting outside the rules, violently and with impunity. It translates as "excesses" or "atrocities."
It's the term Russian soldiers use to describe their actions in Chechnya.
"Without bespredel, we'll get nowhere in Chechnya," a 21-year-old conscript explained. "We have to be cruel to them. Otherwise, we'll achieve nothing."
Since Russia launched a new war against separatist rebels in its republic of Chechnya a year ago, Russian and Western human rights organizations have collected thousands of pages of testimony from victims about human rights abuses committed by Russian servicemen against Chechen civilians and suspected rebel fighters.
To hear the other side of the story, a Times reporter traveled to more than half a dozen regions around Russia and interviewed more than two dozen Russian servicemen returning from the war front.
What they recounted largely matches the picture painted in the human rights reports: The men freely acknowledge that acts considered war crimes under international law not only take place but are also commonplace.
In fact, most admitted committing such acts themselves--everything from looting to summary executions to torture.
"There was bespredel all the time," one 35-year-old soldier said. "You can't let it get to you."
The servicemen say atrocities aren't directly ordered from above; instead, they result from a Russian military culture that glorifies ardor in battle, portrays the enemy as inhuman and has no effective system of accountability.
"Your army is based on professionalism," said a 27-year-old paratrooper who served alongside U.S. troops as a peacekeeper in Bosnia-Herzegovina. "Our army is based on fervor."
Russian officials, including the Kremlin's war spokesman, Sergei V. Yastrzhembsky, have criticized the human rights reports, saying they are riddled with rumor and rebel propaganda.
Officials have sometimes blamed reported atrocities on what they describe as rebel fighters dressed as Russian soldiers.
But they acknowledge that some human rights violations do occur and say they are taking steps to curb them.
"[Chechens] are Russian citizens, for whose sake the operation was undertaken in the first place," Yastrzhembsky said in an interview. "They should be treated according to the same laws as in the rest of Russia. Any violation, regardless of who commits it, must be reviewed by the procurator [investigating magistrate] and the guilty parties should be punished."
That may be the Kremlin's official position, but servicemen say things are different on the ground. In part because of media coverage of Chechen slave-trading, torture and beheadings, the soldiers believe that the enemy is guilty of far worse atrocities.
Although they know that executions and other human rights violations are wrong, they also consider them an unavoidable--even necessary--part of waging war, especially against such a foe.
In their view, human rights workers and other critics are simply squeamish about the real nature of war.
"What rules? What Geneva Conventions? What difference does it make if Russia has signed them?" said a 25-year-old army officer. "I didn't sign them, none of my friends signed them. . . . In Russia, these rules don't work."
Perhaps most important, the servicemen described a pervasive and powerful culture of impunity in the Russian armed forces. They believe that authorities say one thing in public but deliberately turn a blind eye to many war crimes. A few even said investigators helped cover up such atrocities. Right or wrong, the soldiers are confident that authorities will make no serious effort to investigate war zone misconduct.
"You don't make it obvious, and they don't look too hard," another 21-year-old conscript said. "Everyone understands that's the way it works."
Many of the servicemen admitted having troubled consciences. But like a mantra, most repeated what they had been taught--that whether one likes it or not, going to war means acting bespredel.
"What kind of human rights can there be in wartime?" said a 31-year-old police commando. "It's fine to violate human rights within certain limits."

Glass houses and all that
 
#16
notwithstanding the purely military aspects of possible breach of roe, supposing as his family say, this was a "murder" that was typical of a murderous israeli military and state.

in a british court, unless it has changed when i slept, for a murder conviction you have to prove motive, as well as means and opportunity.

what on earth was the motive of the soldier's murder? that he obviously knew at night and from an apc (thanks arik), that this was not a disguise, say, but actually one of the legions of bbc types who have regularly traduced the israeli military and state. and so it was a sort of revenge. well that should be interesting. is it a valid motive, and if so, anyone got any evidence?

however, there is an interesting, to me, corollary. in continually seeing the conflict between pals and israelis as some sort of, for example, colonial v racism thing and all such similar arguements. this allows cherie blair, and lady tonge, and many others, to laud and understand the suicide bombers. this allows john snow to traduce israeli diplomats, etc., etc..

yet in portraying the ideology of political islam and islam in general as being absolutely no part of the pals v israel thing, for example the believers v the kaffirs, the british public were and are most misled and unprepared, when the same or similar ideologies arrived, and established a 10% of the population potential (i said potential lest i be quoted) "beachead"?, on their shores.

who is really going to pay for it? or as they say, what goes around, comes around.
 
#17
KGB_resident said:
DesktopCommando said:
Why In Britain ???

" in the killing of photographer James Miller in Gaza in 2003 "

He was in a conflict Zone, In a forgein country
James Millier was killed in Gaza not in Israel. As Palestinian state has not been created then the only legetimate place for trial is the UK.

Bugly said:
Arik said:
KGBR - what is your obsession with Israel and muck raking?
Same as Taz_786, he doesn't like Jews.
I like noble Jewish people - nice, talented, inventive.

Arik, it is an important theme, intersting for ARSSErs. Absolutely innocent British citizen was killed. It is a cause for concern. It is important to prevent tragedies of this type.

Btw, do you support possible extradition of the suspect?

Sergey, it's extremely obvious to any observer that's actually been in a combat zone that the statements you make are from an armchair observation or a stretch in order to inflame anti-Israel sentiment as is your usual modus operandi.

In even trying to take the time to identify a target during a firefight is an exercise in butt clenching faith in God, let alone trying to ascertain whether or not what's in the guys hands is a camera or a weapon of some sort.

Your statements make it sound as though he was lined up against a wall in broad daylight and shot.

How are you so positive that the soldier in question knew for a fact that he was shooting a British member of the press, and not a lookout, scout, FO, sniper, or any number of nasty professions designed to kill said soldier? Seems the fact that he's Israeli is the only thing that makes you sure he is a criminal. What facts do you present that can show that his action was criminal in nature?

It's unfortunate what happened to the photographer and I hope the best for the family and do not want in any way minimize his families loss but what the dispute seems to be over is money.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. I would think that most readers on this board can most likely sympathize with the soldier more.
 
#18
I could be wrong, but I seem to remember James Miller's father is ex-army. Grief, perhaps, but he seems certain that the ROE followed (or not) are not in anyway comparable with those of the British Army.

Btw, Bedouins- which Miller's killer was- seem to have a particularly bad record in sniping at civilians, including children. Or maybe they were confused with midget terrorists? Sneaky Muslims, eh...?
 
#19
The 'Jumping Jews of Juraselum', bless the springs in their boots, have it tough enough on the Net without it having to gain ground on ARRSE.

Military actions call for miltary tribunals, these have been conducted; if civilised nations can conduct this between themselves then there should be satisfaction for all without wannabe shylocks wanting their pound of flesh too.
 
#20
Rumpelstiltskin said:
low-profile said:
operationally: believe it or not, israel actually has an army, not a bunch of terrorists. and armies think like armies. israeli soldiers are issued with printed rules of engagement. just like most armies i know of.

the rules of engagement seem to follow geneva convention, laws of war etc., etc.. (though orders of the day, as anywhere, can adjust roe's generally or operationally).

i just wonder if the deceased, an accomplished military journalist?, was willfully ignorant of ROE's, equating an army with a bunch of terrorists, in deliberately putting himself in harm's way? that is: was and is there a hidden agenda?
I don't know if you've seen the footage- it was shown on C4's Death In Gaza- but James Miller and Saira Shah stopped, raised their hands above their heads, and shouted 'we're from English television'. They didn't move at all in the long pause before he was shot dead (by a Bedouin Arab, btw).

Or do you think he consciously chose to be murdered as part of a 'hidden agenda'? What is that, 'method journalism'?
Did they shout it in English ???? doesnt mean that an IDF soldier knows English !
 

Latest Threads

Top