Israel and it's right to exist.

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#1
Does the State of Israel have a right to exist?,considering that a large percentage of Arab countries deny the right of any Middle Eastern country that do not adhere to Islam the right to exist where does that leave Israel?.....
 
#2
sucking on the first teat of the US.

Israel will exist for as long as the US will keep subsidising them the armaments and banking facilitys for them to do so.

one day the US will be over as numbar one uber-power (ie - skint) and the zionists will be****ed. it may take a hundred years or so, but it is enevitable.
 
#3
Does the State of Israel have a right to exist?,considering that a large percentage of Arab countries deny the right of any Middle Eastern country that do not adhere to Islam the right to exist where does that leave Israel?.....
What right does the United Kingdom have to exist? Or the US for that matter? If we applied the rules set to the Palestinian-Israel conflict, neither have a right to be called a country really.

I just know it's there. Full of people, and if they lose statehood, what then? I really doubt the propaganda of blood thirsty jews entering palestinian towns and killing all men, women, and children, but I could certainly see the arabs doing that.
 
#4
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands, but rather out of the Ottoman Empire, which had been ruled for 400 years by the Turks who lost it when they, fighting alongside Germany, were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians, but rather simply Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine.

It was only after World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were also created – also out of the Turkish Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about 80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then, Jews have been prohibited from owning property there.

In 1947, a UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the stateless Arabs. But the rulers of eight Arab states did not want a non-Arab state anywhere in the Middle East. Thus they rejected the UN arrangement and simultaneously launched a three-front war of annihilation against the newly created state of Israel -- on the very day of its creation in 1948. Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war, which they ultimately lost.
 
#5
Does the State of Israel have a right to exist?,considering that a large percentage of Arab countries deny the right of any Middle Eastern country that do not adhere to Islam the right to exist where does that leave Israel?.....
The right to exist is said to be an attribute of nations. According to an essay by the nineteenth century French philosopher Ernest Renan, a state has the right to exist when individuals are willing to sacrifice their own interests for the community it represents. Unlike self-determination, the right to exist is an attribute of states rather than of peoples. It is not a right recognized in international law. The phrase has featured prominently in the Arab–Israeli conflict since the 1950s.
The right to exist of a de facto state may be balanced against another state's right to territorial integrity. Proponents of the right to exist trace it back to the "right of existence," said to be a fundamental right of states recognized by writers on international law for hundreds of years.

Israel's right to exist
 
#6
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands, but rather out of the Ottoman Empire, which had been ruled for 400 years by the Turks who lost it when they, fighting alongside Germany, were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians, but rather simply Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine.

It was only after World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were also created – also out of the Turkish Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about 80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then, Jews have been prohibited from owning property there.

In 1947, a UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the stateless Arabs. But the rulers of eight Arab states did not want a non-Arab state anywhere in the Middle East. Thus they rejected the UN arrangement and simultaneously launched a three-front war of annihilation against the newly created state of Israel -- on the very day of its creation in 1948. Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war, which they ultimately lost.
So sensible a reply that I actually like it...
 
#7
sucking on the first teat of the US.

Israel will exist for as long as the US will keep subsidising them the armaments and banking facilitys for them to do so.
sucking on the first teat of the US and Arab Countries.

Palestinian scum will exist for as long as the US and Arab countries will keep subsidising them the armaments and banking facilitys for them to do so.
 
#8
Israel is where it is and there it is, there,s no other argument, if the Arabs dont like it, tough, let them suck it up, or defy the UN and take on whatever comes, they are not the be all and end all of self righteous indignation and anger at the very existence of a people who are different religously and or ethnicly to them. Me! I support the Israelis and I dont give a curly shit who doesnt like it.
 
#9
Israel is where it is and there it is, there,s no other argument, if the Arabs dont like it, tough, let them suck it up, or defy the UN and take on whatever comes, they are not the be all and end all of self righteous indignation and anger at the very existence of a people who are different religously and or ethnicly to them. Me! I support the Israelis and I dont give a curly shit who doesnt like it.
Here here
 
#10
Israel is where it is and there it is, there,s no other argument, if the Arabs dont like it, tough, let them suck it up, or defy the UN and take on whatever comes, they are not the be all and end all of self righteous indignation and anger at the very existence of a people who are different religously and or ethnicly to them. Me! I support the Israelis and I dont give a curly shit who doesnt like it.
Here Here Here.....
 
#11
I would have been against the creation of Israel had I been about in 1948, but I wasn't and it was 63 years ago. Blaming modern Israelis for whatever crimes people think their grandparents or great grandparents committed during the creation of Israel is as tedious and borderline retarded as blaming modern Germans for the Holocaust.
 
#12
Far be it for me to point out the obvious... but spelling 'Israel' wrong rather undermined the informed and considered opinions of the original poster for this callsign... Bit more reading and you might learn that properly we refer to those bits that cartographers struggle with as 'The Occupied Palestinian Territories'... and that a lot of those Arabs displaced by the events of 1948 (and beyond) are in fact Christians, and a lot of the vandalism perpetrated by Israel against the heritage of 'The Holy Land' involved the destruction of Byzantine and Crusader churches and shrines, villages and communities in place since 33 AD and beyond. Not that it matters, when settlement fortresses are making a Zionist point against... the Russians... the Nazis... the Egyptians (Alexandria was the largest Jewish settlement bar none at one point), in the form of kicking the Palestinians. After 70 years of putting up with that, I can see that you'd be a little bit terrorist-sympathetic.
Not that this is the fault of everyday common and garden Israelis, who are rightly worried about rocket attacks and bus bombs. However, it amazes me that anyone can sympathise with the political (right wing) establishment of Israel. The populations, yes, but the governments? Hypocritical, Machiavellian and an international liability.
Yes, Israel exists, and to argue the case is to be 70 years too late. However, the question is HOW it should exist, and the answer has to be: not in its present form.
 
#14
Forgive my ignorance but didnt the red sea pedestrians live in those lands long before some bedouin paedophile started having hallucintations? Or do historical claims only go so far back?
They lived there for about 600 years, 200 years of which were under the Romans and the Greeks. Then the Diaspora happened, and they moved to Egypt (again), Yemen, Russia, Western Europe, Saudi Arabia and even bits of Sub Saharan Africa for the next 1700 years. In fact... Jews lived in Medina for the same length of time as they did in Israel (before Muhammad killed them all/ married them off c. 632). The Jewish presence in Israel was totally negligible until the Zionist movement got rolling around about the turn of the 20th century. They have a somewhat tenuous claim, viewed entirely objectively...
 
#15
Yes, Israel exists, and to argue the case is to be 70 years too late. However, the question is HOW it should exist, and the answer has to be: not in its present form.
As I've argued on other threads I can't really see any legitimate reason as to why the West Bank isn't turned into the state of Palestine with Gaza allowed in once the appeal of Hamas wears off and they realise that they can never hope to wipe out Israel without going with them and that they're going to be far better off making peace.
 
#16
The State of Israel was created in a peaceful and legal process by the United Nations. It was not created out of Palestinian lands, but rather out of the Ottoman Empire, which had been ruled for 400 years by the Turks who lost it when they, fighting alongside Germany, were defeated in World War I. There were no “Palestinian” lands at the time because there were no people claiming to be Palestinians, but rather simply Arabs who lived in the region of Palestine.

It was only after World War I that the present states of Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq were also created – also out of the Turkish Empire by the British and French victors. Jordan was created on about 80 percent of the Palestine Mandate, which was originally designated by the League of Nations as part of the Jewish homeland. Since then, Jews have been prohibited from owning property there.

In 1947, a UN partition plan mandated the creation of two states on the remaining 20 percent of the Palestine Mandate: the State of Israel for the Jews, and another state for the stateless Arabs. But the rulers of eight Arab states did not want a non-Arab state anywhere in the Middle East. Thus they rejected the UN arrangement and simultaneously launched a three-front war of annihilation against the newly created state of Israel -- on the very day of its creation in 1948. Israel begged for peace and offered friendship and cooperation to its neighbors. The Arab dictators rejected this offer and answered it with a war, which they ultimately lost.
The Israelis were no strangers to underhand attacks & terrorism.

Remember the King David Hotel?

I actually agree with the concept of Israel as a nation state but the buggers CAN be their own worst enemies at times.
 
#17
They lived there for about 600 years, 200 years of which were under the Romans and the Greeks. Then the Diaspora happened, and they moved to Egypt (again), Yemen, Russia, Western Europe, Saudi Arabia and even bits of Sub Saharan Africa for the next 1700 years. In fact... Jews lived in Medina for the same length of time as they did in Israel (before Muhammad killed them all/ married them off c. 632). The Jewish presence in Israel was totally negligible until the Zionist movement got rolling around about the turn of the 20th century. They have a somewhat tenuous claim, viewed entirely objectively...
So they were there first but lost the lands by right of conquest? What makes the pally claim any better?
 

Sixty

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#18
What makes the pally claim any better?
The lack of a concerted campaign by Israel to convince the world that they're a poor and set upon people like the Palestinians (who manage to forget somehow that they're occupied because they participated in a war of aggression and lost) plus campaigning that manages to mobilise various do-gooders and celebrities.
 
#19
Far be it for me to point out the obvious... but spelling 'Israel' wrong rather undermined the informed and considered opinions of the original poster for this callsign... Bit more reading and you might learn that properly we refer to those bits that cartographers struggle with as 'The Occupied Palestinian Territories'... and that a lot of those Arabs displaced by the events of 1948 (and beyond) are in fact Christians, and a lot of the vandalism perpetrated by Israel against the heritage of 'The Holy Land' involved the destruction of Byzantine and Crusader churches and shrines, villages and communities in place since 33 AD and beyond. Not that it matters, when settlement fortresses are making a Zionist point against... the Russians... the Nazis... the Egyptians (Alexandria was the largest Jewish settlement bar none at one point), in the form of kicking the Palestinians. After 70 years of putting up with that, I can see that you'd be a little bit terrorist-sympathetic.
Not that this is the fault of everyday common and garden Israelis, who are rightly worried about rocket attacks and bus bombs. However, it amazes me that anyone can sympathise with the political (right wing) establishment of Israel. The populations, yes, but the governments? Hypocritical, Machiavellian and an international liability.
Yes, Israel exists, and to argue the case is to be 70 years too late. However, the question is HOW it should exist, and the answer has to be: not in its present form.
Hm, first, whenever I hear the term "zionist" I can instantly tell what side of the fence the argument is going to come from.

We get it Mel, the jews killed jesus ergo they are now and forever dubbed the evil jews. Crusader churchs destroyed by the jews? You do understand that muslims inhabited the area for a bit and tend to be more inclined to destroy kufr monuments and sites right? Al Aqsa Mosque gives credence to that.

Those displaced arabs you mention, as simroy eloquently pointed out were displaced by the palestinian mandate, not any israeli.

Your statement that garden variety israelis are not worthy of your ire, but imply that since they support their right wing government, then they are guilty by association.

I'm not sure why you give israel this "special preference" in being dismantled due to their current government, your extreme bias is very thinly veiled here.

Plus, you never offer an alternative, just a mysterious "not in its present form" ala Iranian nut job el presidente. Are you him? Are you president ahneedanewjob?
 
#20
Hm, first, whenever I hear the term "zionist" I can instantly tell what side of the fence the argument is going to come from.

We get it Mel, the jews killed jesus ergo they are now and forever dubbed the evil jews. Crusader churchs destroyed by the jews? You do understand that muslims inhabited the area for a bit and tend to be more inclined to destroy kufr monuments and sites right? Al Aqsa Mosque gives credence to that.

Those displaced arabs you mention, as simroy eloquently pointed out were displaced by the palestinian mandate, not any israeli.

Your statement that garden variety israelis are not worthy of your ire, but imply that since they support their right wing government, then they are guilty by association.

I'm not sure why you give israel this "special preference" in being dismantled due to their current government, your extreme bias is very thinly veiled here.

Plus, you never offer an alternative, just a mysterious "not in its present form" ala Iranian nut job el presidente. Are you him? Are you president ahneedanewjob?
My dear chap, do calm down and reassess what you're accusing me of. There's an peculiarly American technique of argument known as 'The Straw Man', and you're as guilty of it as a puppy sitting by a pile of poo, to coin a phrase.

I can't be bothered to quote through all of your statements one by one, so I'll pick the most bonkers ones.

The Arabs weren't all displaced by the Palestinian Mandate (I can't quote figures on that one, so I'll run with it) but there were a couple of awkward territory grabs subsequently (1967 et al) that had nasty consequences for the Palestinians, and most importantly, multiple land clearances that are ongoing, hence the fact that Bethlehem is now basically part of East Jerusalem connected by a daisy-chain of illegal settlements, and organisations such as this one Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions daily bewail the outrages of the Israeli powers that be.

Jews didn't kill Jesus. Romans did. Any ful kno that. And any educated Christian knows that Man killed Jesus- that's the point, and I'm frankly insulted that you would sink so low.

Israeli Zionists used the term Zionist. Read the Balfour Declaration. Problem?

I'm upset that posters on this site support Benjamin Netanyahu et al. Not the Israelis. It's their business (and they don't all- that's the beauty of the democracy that the country in question is proud of upholding a bastion of in the Middle East- ironic when you consider that its Palestinian residents by and large aren't allowed to vote- there are a few exceptions I grant you).

You'd be surprised how pally Muslims and Christians were in the Byzantine Empire.

Do you really want to hear my alternative? Give the Palestinians and the Syrians back the land as agreed in 1948. If you can't deal with that, at least give them back what they agreed in 1967. Give Jerusalem to the UN, and rip down all the illegal (and shocking) walls around various bits of the West Bank. Stop bullying the Armenians in the Old City- they've been through enough grief in the last 100 years. Let the West Bank be an idependent Palestinian entity (that might solve the problem of the Dead Sea drying up and letting Jordan have a direct land border). Stop vandalising archaeological sites for political ends (it upsets my academic sensibilities). Tell the ILLEGAL settlers to pack up their PSCs and squeeze into Israel. Stop growing totally unsuitable crops so that the Jordan actually still has water in it by the time it gets to the West Bank. Stop bulldozing houses. Give Israeli arabs the vote. Equal job rights. Equal rights to build houses. Equal rights to send their kids to whatever university they can afford. Equal rights to use the road systems.

You are right in one key point though. I am Mel Gibson. And Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. They are in fact the same person. (little known that one. The only people who know are knee-jerk blinkered right-wing... oh I give up)
 
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