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Islamist Attacks in France and Tunisia

Lacking Moral Fibre

Old-Salt
Book Reviewer
Maybe so but the last attempt to kill someone because they believe in the wrong religion was on January 14th this year.
The victim wasn't even a Muslim, which was the intended target of the would be killer.
That particular lunatic will hopefully be away for a decades, ISIL are practising genocide and yet many are flocking to that cause. I do not see any
Yeah so what? The Nazis built some cracking buildings, bunkers, tanks, u boats.......
Your not really convincing me! Yes I do read the Daily Mail.
 
Last time I was in Turkey the first thing we saw on leaving the dockyard gate, whilst on the coach to Marmaris, was graffiti daubed on a building saying "Go home NATO b@stards". It was out of season so not many holiday makers around. Several members of the ship's company got "picked off" by locals when returning to the designated congregation area for the coach back. The RFA that was with us had it's whole flight OPDEF'd due to the flight observer and a few others having half a paving slab dropped on them as they attempted to stop one of the wrens getting filled in by locals. The tactic was - two blokes on a moped would drive by and throw something / attempt to provoke - then a whole swarm of them would appear.
I no longer trust Turks.
Saw something similar painted on the sea-wall at Lochgoilhead in 1966, except it said 'Yankees'.
 
Tunisia beach attack victims let down by "cowardly" security forces - UK inquiry
Coroner's not too happy with the Tunisian security forces:
The 30 British victims of a shooting at a hotel in Tunisia were unlawful killed, a UK inquiry found on Tuesday, with the judge severely critical of "cowardly" local security forces but not concluding that neglect had caused the deaths.

A gunman murdered 30 Britons and eight other nationals on a Tunisian beach resort in 2015, having walked nearly two miles on his killing spree before being shot dead by security forces. Islamic State claimed responsibility.

The British victims had booked their trips through Thomson Holidays, which is owned by TUI Group (TUIT.L).

Summing up after the six week inquest, Judge Nicholas Loraine-Smith said that the tourists were not dependent on the tour operator or hotel, so he could not rule that there had been neglect.

However, he did severely criticise Tunisian security forces saying that their response had been "at best shambolic, and at worst cowardly".

In Britain a coroner's inquest establishes the facts of an incident but does not assign legal blame or guilt. Loraine-Smith found that the deaths were the result of "unlawful killing" by gunman Seifeddine Rezgui, who was shot dead by police.
 
The good Judge Nicholas Loraine-Smith can be as unhappy as he wishes as I suspect the Tunisian authorities will give him a good, stiff 'Meh'.
They might do... if the health of their country's economy did not rely so heavily on foreign tourism. The economy fails, then so to eventually will the government and very likely into the hands of Islamists of one sort or another.
 
With negligence and civil claims coming into tour operators from the families, I can't imagine TUI will be too keen on resuming business as usual.

I really do not understand this Tour Operator liability thing for terrorism. The terrorist or terrorist nation is to blame for terrorism, how on earth a Tour Operator can be held culpable is rather odd? Would I sue Qantas for getting eaten by a shark in Australia?
 
With negligence and civil claims coming into tour operators from the families, I can't imagine TUI will be too keen on resuming business as usual.

I really do not understand this Tour Operator liability thing for terrorism. The terrorist or terrorist nation is to blame for terrorism, how on earth a Tour Operator can be held culpable is rather odd? Would I sue Qantas for getting eaten by a shark in Australia?
Of course you don't understand it.
You are not thick, greedy and wanting someone to blame who has money.
 
They might do... if the health of their country's economy did not rely so heavily on foreign tourism. The economy fails, then so to eventually will the government and very likely into the hands of Islamists of one sort or another.
Not disagreeing with that, though I suspect that we will be treated to the Tunisian version of 'lessons have been learned' etc. Given that the country is bounded East and West by Libya and Algeria respectively, their porous borders are ripe for exploitation. Though nominally a secular state, there is (apparently) a growing underground that supports full sharia.
 
With negligence and civil claims coming into tour operators from the families, I can't imagine TUI will be too keen on resuming business as usual.

I really do not understand this Tour Operator liability thing for terrorism. The terrorist or terrorist nation is to blame for terrorism, how on earth a Tour Operator can be held culpable is rather odd? Would I sue Qantas for getting eaten by a shark in Australia?
I went to Marrakesh with TUI last year and the hotel security was a bit of a joke. Bag checks and a security arch at the front of reception, but you could bypass reception and go straight to your room and the hotel grounds. You could even the enter reception via a second entrance that was unmanned. Under those circumstances I can see the possibility of a claim if anything happens. However even then it would be pushing it. If there had been an attack in Marrakesh city centre then the tour operator has the same level of responsibility as a hotel in London would during a terrorist attack there.

On a slight side note, I got a phone call yesterday from one of those PPI type companies yesterday. Would I like to sue my holiday company? Obviously I'd had my holiday ruined by getting the screaming abdabs from the hotel restaurant and I could be entitled to up to £2300 in compensation.

Who would want to run a holiday company these days?
 
With negligence and civil claims coming into tour operators from the families, I can't imagine TUI will be too keen on resuming business as usual.

I really do not understand this Tour Operator liability thing for terrorism. The terrorist or terrorist nation is to blame for terrorism, how on earth a Tour Operator can be held culpable is rather odd? Would I sue Qantas for getting eaten by a shark in Australia?
It's not so much about being 'to blame' it appears it's more about them 'expected' to offer information and guidance.

TUI allegedly told its customers it's '100%' safe, yet the FCO website said there was a threat of terrorism and kidnapping. Still smacks of a excuse of lack of personal responsibility. "They said it was safe, but I didn't bother to check myself" So they took as red a salesman's advice, who's on commission for that sale, without actually checking if a country in North Africa is safe. A country next to violent and unstable Libya, a nation with active ISIS presence BTW

Some of the survivors of a mass shooting in Tunisia say they were told by Tui travel agents before they travelled that the north African country was “100% safe” and were not shown official travel advice warning that the threat from terrorism was high, an inquest has heard.

Ritchie was questioning an FCO official, Jane Marriott, about travel advice. Marriott told the inquest that as part of a scheme between the FCO and tour operators, called Know Before You Go, travel agents would be “expected to promote” the travel advice. Travel firms were also expected to display a “prominent Know Before You Go” logo and link to the travel advice on their websites.

Asked whether the claimed experiences of Stollery and Thompson would make her feel “comfortable”, Marriott, who was FCO director of Middle East and north Africa at the time of the Sousse attack, said: “We would expect our partners to fulfil that requirement [to promote the advice].”
A lot more info is in this link.

Travel firm told Sousse survivors Tunisia was 100% safe, inquest hears
 
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Tbf the '100% safe' advice was from some chopper on the shop floor/phone & I'd say anyone who is on the look out for a cheap holiday & accepts that as gospel using it post event as a 'well they told us etc' excuse should shove their head in a wood chipper. Those types of hols are cheap for a reason.
It certainly doesn't absolve a travel coy from making adequate security provisions but it also doesn't absolve Joe fuckwit public from doing their own diligence checks on the safety of any destination. I do it for every overseas place i visit. I'm off to Morocco in a few weeks,, I've already looked at the location, checked the FCO advice & nearer to the ToD I'll check again & make sure I know how to get to consular /embassy help if I need it. I'll also have an exfil plan I'll have looked at. Anyone who wanders off to anywhere where there is mid level threat to westerners is fooking tool for not doing something similar.
 
Tbf the '100% safe' advice was from some chopper on the shop floor/phone & I'd say anyone who is on the look out for a cheap holiday & accepts that as gospel using it post event as a 'well they told us etc' excuse should shove their head in a wood chipper. Those types of hols are cheap for a reason.
It certainly doesn't absolve a travel coy from making adequate security provisions but it also doesn't absolve Joe fuckwit public from doing their own diligence checks on the safety of any destination. I do it for every overseas place i visit. I'm off to Morocco in a few weeks,, I've already looked at the location, checked the FCO advice & nearer to the ToD I'll check again & make sure I know how to get to consular /embassy help if I need it. I'll also have an exfil plan I'll have looked at. Anyone who wanders off to anywhere where there is mid level threat to westerners is fooking tool for not doing something similar.
Why do that when you, or your NOK, can insist the Coroner declares TUI negligent, then it's a massive KERCHING!!

£££££££££££££££££££££ overrules common sense donchaknow?
 
My last visit to Morocco was about 18 months ago and visible security was being stepped up then, to the extent that for the first time in almost a decade of travelling and staying there, I saw armed Soldiers patrolling with Police at airports and most railway stations for the first time. Moroccan Friends over there tell me that their govt. has issued high level terrorist alerts asking people to be on their guard, I find it a terrible shame that these extremist nutters are spoiling it for virtually the whole of Islamic MENA.
I lived in Morocco happily and safely, travelling from the North down through much of the country to the start of the Sahara south of the Atlas mountains, for about 7 years, finding the Moroccans, in the main, friendly and helpful (apart from their abysmal/dangerous driving). I could even buy some quite cheap locally produced wine to drink.
Some reports I am now getting from my Moroccan friends still there, point to the increased danger of attack there down to the ever increasing, insidious influence of the Saudi wahhabism which is funded there and most of the other flash points by the Saudis & Gulf states. There has even been criticism of the King by certain hard line groups abroad and even some in Morocco, for his banning of the production of Face veils & the wearing of Burkas in Morocco for security reasons.. Reports: Morocco bans sale of full-face veil
IMHO anyone travelling to the MENA should be aware that there are religious nutters who are being encouraged by certain groups to attack Westerners and despite the majority of the population being OK, it only takes one idiot with a knife to kill or maim, never mind AK 47's or grenades, and as we have seen all around the world, thanks to the Saudi & Gulf funding & backing, there are a growing number of these around, hence I will NOT be venturing there for the foreseeable future.
 
Morocco is a very different kettle of fish to Tunisia. Morocco's Jihadist Paradox, Unraveled
It has excellent internal security and since the Casablanca bombings of 2003, has been very proactive in rounding up the usual suspects. Where they are very different from Tunisia is in leadership.
Morocco 's monarchy has taken its responsibility more seriously, hence why the King didn't have as significant protests against him in 2011-2012.

Pre Jasmine revolution, the Tunisian security forces were primarily enforcers for a very corrupt and rapacious regime.
Rebuilding/reforming without backsliding into the same repressive habits as before is a challenge. Their army is much more trusted, but small so committed to Ops on the western frontier with not much slack for tourist areas.
The economy is very dependent on tourism, however the experience of an islamist government under Ennahada and it's failures means as long as the tourism dip isn't too long, then there isn't as much risk to regime collapse.
As well as supporting security forces, being able to change the travel advice in due course is an important support.
The French and Spanish holidaymakers are back in their preferred resorts, it is surprising to see how many hotels relied on a British pound.
Tunisia is also seen a traditional French sphere of influence, so like most former French colonies, there will be big gendarme and police training links and programmes.


Keeping MMCC on time and target...
 

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