Is Venezuela heading towards a dictatorship?

Is Venezuela heading towards a dictatorship?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Not Sure

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
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#2
Venezula will become a dictorship if the US sucessfully sponsor a coup against it's democratically elected president just they did in Chile in 1973.

The problem with your Yank is that you are b ad loser and like to move the goal poles when result do turn out in your result. The last thing you guys ever know is fair play!!
 
#3
It depends whether you define "evil dictator" as "anyone who disagrees with US policy2 or not, doesn't it? It looks like the Yanks are preparing the groundwork for a little "intervention".
 
#4
That was a another place and a another time during the cold war. Coup are a bad Idea . Take a look at what is happening in Venezuela now, not what happened in Chile 30 years ago. The Venezuelan democracy is dying and you are complaining about the US. There are bad things in this world independent of the US.
 
#6
When HRW supports Chavez he has no problem with them. When they criticize Chavez their representative works for the CIA



HRW blasts Chavez Government, is anyone listening?

It seems like yesterday when I was blasting Human Rights Watch in 2002 for criticizing the opposition for things that Chavez did routinely, right after the aftermath of Chavez departure in 2002. I really thought that Vivancos’ reports at the time were bad, except for their support of human rights organizations PROVEA and COFAVIC. The Chavez Government on the other hand paraded Vivancos and his report both locally and abroad to show what the bad guys in the opposition were doing. My own personal opinion is that Vivancos was watching things from afar at the time. He was naïve, but thankfully he came and stayed a while and got the true picture of what was going on.

In fact, turn the clock back five more years and the same happened at that time with PROVEA and COFAVIC. Chavez used to quote these NGO’s reports, hail them for their work, and say that these were the true patriots. Until they began criticizing him…In fact, the only moment I ever doubted my non-support for Chavez was precisely when he praised these organizations that I admired so much.



Well, today HRW is the same for the Chávez administration, Vivancos is a CIA operative, paid by who knows who, a representative somehow of the US, as if he had no track record in defending human rights. The Chávez administration wants nothing to do with him, as Vivancos dared to come to Caracas and call the Venezuelan judicial system “so weak” that it justifies for the OAS to invoke the Interamerican Charter over the issue.


Vivancos in his speech yesterday cited not only the lack of judicial responsibility, but also pointed out the threats to freedom of speech via legislative measures like the Content law, the reform of the Penal code that has led to actions without precedent, the persecution of human rights fighters as well as the disregard by the Venezuelan State for the precautionary measures of the Interamerican human rights commission.



But to my amazement, I wonder where all those people that called for better treatment of those that staged the 1992 coup in Venezuelan jails are today? They were not only well treated, but they were pardoned, paid their military pensions and many were even hired by the Caldera Government to run social programs. Where are these fighters for human rights today when the Venezuelan judicial system is a travesty? When ONG’s are persecuted for the simple fact that they try to defend voter rights? When women are trampled on the streets by Robocop looking fascist National Guards? When the number of people killed in confrontations with police is up five fold? When homicides are p three fold? When innocent civilians are shot death in the streets while they are protesting against the Government? When Chavista groups armed to their teeth kidnap and intimidate international reporters? When TV stations and radio stations are intimidated by Government officials or supporters? Where are you people? Do you simply have a double standard?



I will never forget my visit to Argentina many years ago, right after the last military dictatorship. I met a bunch of what were then to me kids, that were going to attend a course I gave at the time. They told me about their university class. How they were all persecuted for being academics. I asked how many there were, fourteen was the answer. And only five had actually survived. I asked them how this could be. They said nobody cared, whether in Argentina or abroad, they were just abstract numbers. Life simply went on And things did not happen overnight there. This was at the end. We can not let the same happen here. Hopefully Vivancos, PROVEA and COFAVIC will continue fighting and letting the word out. But will you?
 
#7
Did I miss something ? Have we turned into Mil.com overnight ? I don't think so. So can we drop the "criticism of US policy = communism and enemy of the state" crap then please. Funnily enough, the Soviet Union was rather fond of that sort of approach, only they used the equation "criticism of Soviet Union policy = fascism and enemy of the state".

And if you're wondering why we tend to be cynical about US policy towards Venezuela then consider s few things:

There are far worse regimes out there doing appalling things to their inhabitants (eg Zimbabwe) but the US remains silent about them;
Chavez has visibly annoyed the US administration by refusing to be a puppet a la Blair;
Democracy might be wobbly but you don't defeat a coup attempt without genuine support;
Said coup attempt was very dodgy in terms of outside assistance;
They have oil.

Any chance of an answer that doesn't refer to me as a commie, a liberal, moonbat, pinko eurofag or any of the other terms serving as a substitute for intelligent debate ?
 
#8
NEO_CON said:
That was a another place and a another time during the cold war. Coup are a bad Idea . Take a look at what is happening in Venezuela now, not what happened in Chile 30 years ago. The Venezuelan democracy is dying and you are complaining about the US. There are bad things in this world independent of the US.
Well, looking at things from a "fair and balanced" perspective:

Either: Chavez is a nutter who's created a cult of personality around himself and obviously is still far too much of a Colonel.
He makes the USA his centre-piece villain in order to feed off latent distrust of Septics, and said Septics bite like Pavlov's dogs every time he makes a statement designed to increase his popularity.
He is also disliked by Pat Robertson. Robertson is a man of the Lord. Therefore, the Lord does not like Hugo Chavez. "God bless America".


Or: Chavez has begun social programmes for the rural poor, who are usually ignored by the white elite; and that coupled with his often unselfish use of Venezuela's oil wealth (providinig cheap oil to poor countries, etc.) is creating conditions that may allow at least some of South America's indigineous people to finally enfranchise themselves (the other hopefuls being the Bolivian Quechua people led by Evo Morales). Oh yeah, and the Yanks don't like him and the CIA is going to either assassinate him or take him out (...of the country and book him a free Sandals holiday). "God hates America (and doesn't exist)".


You may choose one of these two opinions.
You may not choose both, or a mixture thereof.
Definition: Fair and balanced reporting is about defining both sides, then throwing yourself behind one and denouncing the others.
Chavez is either good or evil.
You can choose any opinion you want. As long as it's one of these two.

What a great setup for a debate.
There, are you happy now, Neo-Con? :)
 
#9
I see the usual suspects are giving Chavez a clean bill of health because he happens to treat the yanks with contempt.

i see someone has mentioned that arrse is turning into mil.com because some individuals dare to criticise a regime that critizes the yanks. what a strange world we live in.

i guess we will ignore the human rights abuses, flagrant disregard for personal rights, nationalisation on a massive scale, imprisionment of vocal opponents and general imcompentence of the current Chavez regime.

i do wish the anti-yank bigots would get a grip! I see someone has mentioned the old myth of "yanks doing nothing about Zim"! hmmm, i suggest taking head out of arrse and read some proper news organ. Then you might find that US approach to Zim, like ex SoS Powell declaring Mugabe nothing better than a dictator, or current US admin suspension of all aid to Zim due to its dictatorial regime.

but of course, never let the truth get in the way of a good anti-US rant, eh!
 
#11
Plastic yank wrote:

I guess we will ignore the human rights abuses,
Detention without trial for 90 days?

flagrant disregard for personal rights,
Arrest of a member of the public on somewhat spurious grounds for wearing a T-Shirt saying "B*ll*cks" to the Prime Minister?

nationalisation on a massive scale,
Network Rail?

imprisionment of vocal opponents
Ejection from a meeting and subsequent arrest under the Terrorism act of a pensioner who shouted "nonsense" during a conference?

and general imcompentence of the current Chavez regime.
Ministers lose posts for, being generous, dubious dealings not once, not twice, but three times and end up with better posts; taking donations from dubious individuals in exchange for favours; and covering up failure of government departments by blaming anyone but themselves?

Does this not all sound terribly familiar?
 
#12
"If you're not for us you're against us" - not much of a foreign policy is it ? Or are the US just trying to get rid of the few allies they haven't alienated yet ? Again, how about some debate that acknowledges the existence of viewpoints other than the two antagonistic ones those by the media to pander to political stereotypes ?

As for mil.com, "Wake up and smell the stinkin commie." reminds me of the standard of debate encountered there.

Frankly, Chavez does not get a clean bill of health. However, he's no better or worse than a lot of others out there. Why pick on him if not for the oil ? And that's a genuine question, not an attack on the good old USA, the Stars and Stripes, Moms apple pie etc.
 
#13
There are far worse regimes out there doing appalling things to their inhabitants (eg Zimbabwe) but the US remains silent about them;
Chavez has visibly annoyed the US administration by refusing to be a puppet a la Blair;
Democracy might be wobbly but you don't defeat a coup attempt without genuine support;
Said coup attempt was very dodgy in terms of outside assistance;
They have oil.
Chaveez is more than happy to sell people oil.
This person who's writting these stories is part of that dodgy democracy and he doesn't seem to be as cavalier about it as you are.
Zimbabwe is a worst HR abuser than Venezuela. The US condemns the abuses of Zimbabwe. The rank and file on the left will not condemn the HR abusers from their side of the spectrum. Maybe if your side of the spectrum would condem Chavez and his abuses, your side of the spectrum could stop the slide into dictatorship of Venezuela. Its a shame that a democratic country though imperfectly democratic as it was, is going to become a Zimbabwe like dictatorship.
 
#14
Frankly, Chavez does not get a clean bill of health. However, he's no better or worse than a lot of others out there. Why pick on him if not for the oil ? And that's a genuine question, not an attack on the good old USA, the Stars and Stripes, Moms apple pie etc.




Maybe if the International community condemns his undermining of Democratic institutions loudly enough ,the democratic intuitions in Venezuela can be saved .You will be heroes.




[align=center]The US can then go back to being criticized on other issues[/align].
 
#16
Venezuela is by no means the most egregious example of corruption in Latin America: take Colombia, for example, rife with government-supported death squads and extrajudicial killings - yet also a major recipient of US military aid. It is, however, the most critical of the US and a large producer of oil. Why is it singled out...oh wait, never mind, answered my own question there.

Besides, I fail to see how a president who has passed every (internationally accredited) electoral test with flying colours can be either not popularly supported, or a dictator. Certainly there are issues in Venezuela, but to label it as "sliding into dictatorship" is several steps too far.
 
#17
Is this where you start destabilising a democratically elected leader, after all it would not be the first time.

The fact that you already tried this a few years ago in Venezuela against, well guess who, and the people, you know the great unwashed, rocked up to turf the US backed coup leaders out.

Wierd that, how demoracy works.

I must say I am really glad to have you on my side in these testing times.
 
#18
petermtm said:
Venezuela is by no means the most egregious example of corruption in Latin America: take Colombia, for example, rife with government-supported death squads and extrajudicial killings - yet also a major recipient of US military aid. It is, however, the most critical of the US and a large producer of oil. Why is it singled out...oh wait, never mind, answered my own question there.

Besides, I fail to see how a president who has passed every (internationally accredited) electoral test with flying colours can be either not popularly supported, or a dictator. Certainly there are issues in Venezuela, but to label it as "sliding into dictatorship" is several steps too far.
Very nicely put, petermtm. That's it in a nutshell. But then again, if Venezuela had no oil, it wouldn't even get a mention from the Septics. National interests apart, they (the Septics) do tend to meddle in a rather clumsy way in the national politics of other sovereign countries.
Wonder what would happen if other nations started heavily criticising THEIR screwed-up national policies.
Food for thought.

MsG
 
#19
Hugo and his oil$ support his bud Castro and fund terrorists all over 'our side' of the pond. He recently ordered 100K AKs...this to stabilize the region? His boys house a growing radical Islamic community. This is not good for freedom loving peoples. Look for them to blow up on a subway near you. He treats his poor with contempt. Caracas is sorrounded by a tar-paper ring of non-white poor...while he continues to hold the shrinking middle class by the bolos for their riots for food.

This commie loving SOB controles vast wealth and wheels power to the communist revolution. Smells red to me.

( One_of_the_strange...KMA )
 
#20
I never vote on ARRSE's polls even on ones initiated by me because it is a British military forum and results of polls should reflect opinions of Soldiers.

Axiom A: each country with anti-American policy is heading toward a dictatorship.

Theorem 1: Venezuela is heading towards a dictatorship.
 

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