Is this reasonable

Was "the big man" in the right

  • No - He has no right to use force

    Votes: 16 9.0%
  • No - He used too much force

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Yes - He can use force in these circumstances

    Votes: 119 67.2%
  • Yes - He could have used more force to achieve his aim

    Votes: 40 22.6%

  • Total voters
    177
#1
#3
Yes - But this is a learning exercise for me. Just seeing what "Joe Public" would make of this should they find themselves on Jury Duty dealing with an assault case.
 
#4
From a legal standpoint I have no idea but from the question of whether socially he did the right thing then yes!

Maybe if more people were prepared to intervene the twats who think the rest of us owe them a living might think twice. I wish I had half his guts, but I'd be too worried about having a bloody knife pulled on me.
 
#6
#7
Take off your "I'd have kicked his head in" hats and answer me this. Are the actions of this man reasonable under the circumstances?
Yep. The guy without a ticket was holding the entire train up (causing delays/missed changes for every passenger on that train and on every other train on the line) and BTP would have taken half an hour to get there. The guy's actions were, in my opinion, proportionate to the problem. It would have been a different matter if he'd kicked him in.
 
#8
Not sure about scots law but, technically, he's committed an assault. He's neither defending himself, others, or property. Neither is he, I believe, acting using any person powers to effect an arrest as he simply throws him off.

Though he's done the right thing there by helping throw the fare dodger off the train he has no legal power (that I know of) to do so.

I imagine the Daily Wail readership will want him knighted in the new years honour list, I can't imagine them being so supportive if it was a copper roughly throwing him off.
 
#9
He was firm with the lad but never punched or kicked out. No different to how a bouncer or policeman would act in similar circumstances. The problem is the legitimacy of his intervention. Are his actions empowered and legally justified after agreeing with the conducter to get involved. I will be interested to see how this turns out. Hopefully common sense will prevail and it will be forgotten, hopefully the police wont go looking for a scalp.
 
#10
Not sure about scots law but, technically, he's committed an assault. He's neither defending himself, others, or property.

Though he's done the right thing there by helping throw the fare dodger off the train he has no legal power (that I know of) to do so.

I imagine the Daily Wail readership will want him knighted in the new years honour list, I can't imagine them being so supportive if it was a copper roughly throwing him off.
Shhh - Stop spoiling the fun.
 
#12
Not sure about scots law but, technically, he's committed an assault. He's neither defending himself, others, or property. Neither is he, I believe, acting using any person powers to effect an arrest as he simply throws him off.
Though he's done the right thing there by helping throw the fare dodger off the train he has no legal power (that I know of) to do so.

Yep, legally it appears he was wrong to do so, although I doubt a jury would find him guilty.
I imagine the Daily Wail readership will want him knighted in the new years honour list,
I'd buy him a beer at least

I can't imagine them being so supportive if it was a copper roughly throwing him off.
Of course not it would be police brutality, wail, gnash of teeth etc etc
 
#13
Speaking as a UK officer (Not a lawyer) so I can only go by English not Scots law.

Basically down here there are several ways this is legal.. and even if it was a bit shady I wouldn't arrest the 'big guy'.

First of all under common law any person has the power to use reasonable force to prevent a breach of the peace and the young twat swearing and shouting at an old man which could quite easily turn physical is a breach of the peace.

Also under section 3 of the criminal law act any person has the power to use reasonable force to prevent crime. The lad is comitting several crimes including fraud, public order and so on.

Theres no case (In England) for the big man to answer and if I'd attended he would have gotten a handshake and hopefully a letter from an inspector/sgt thanking him for his civic duty.

DISCLAIMER - Mileage may vary with other officers.
 
#14
Speaking as a UK officer (Not a lawyer) so I can only go by English not Scots law.

Basically down here there are several ways this is legal.. and even if it was a bit shady I wouldn't arrest the 'big guy'.

First of all under common law any person has the power to use reasonable force to prevent a breach of the peace and the young twat swearing and shouting at an old man which could quite easily turn physical is a breach of the peace.

Also under section 3 of the criminal law act any person has the power to use reasonable force to prevent crime. The lad is comitting several crimes including fraud, public order and so on.

Theres no case (In England) for the big man to answer and if I'd attended he would have gotten a handshake and hopefully a letter from an inspector/sgt thanking him for his civic duty.

DISCLAIMER - Mileage may vary with other officers.
Out of curiosity if my mate catches a oike stealing from his shop can he legally detain him whilst awaiting for the rozzers to turn up?
 
#15
Yep, problem arises when force goes beyond mere detention/prevention and into vigilantee/revenge.

Obvioulsy he catches the scrote and the scrote will fight - You're still allowed to defend yourself with reasonable force, you just have to make sure your proportionate and the force is legal, necessary and accountable.

IE holding him in an arm lock because he was getting fighty and you explain that - not a problem.

If they give up and you start stamping on their hands and rubbing their face into the floor - Illegal.

Its the same with all the burglar stabbings people have been found with no case to answer for lately - They used reasonable force to defend themselves.
 
#16
Out of curiosity if my mate catches a oike stealing from his shop can he legally detain him whilst awaiting for the rozzers to turn up?
Without doubt. He just can't do more than is necessary to restrain him.
 
#17
Without doubt. He just can't do more than is necessary to restrain him.
What would happen though if said Oike had done nothing wrong, will his mate be in the shit then?
 
#18
What would happen though if said Oike had done nothing wrong, will his mate be in the shit then?
Well this is exactly why quite often both parties will be arrested - To investigate the circumstances.

However, I've never nicked a shopkeeper for defending himself but it is a judgement call on my behalf and I'm sure one day it will blow up in my face.
 
#19
Out of curiosity if my mate catches a oike stealing from his shop can he legally detain him whilst awaiting for the rozzers to turn up?
Speaking for my turf.
We have the wonderful §127 StPO....I think in the US the similar thing is called "citizen arrest".
There are a few conditions:
-you must be a direct witness, or direct witness must be present of a crime
(You or someone needs to see the crime happening. If your car has been broken in, and you grap the next chav you find on the street...127 does not aply)
-there must be danger of escape or destruction of evidence
(you find him shoplifting, but he gives you his (valid)ID-card...you are not allowed to hold him. Well, ok , thats a constructed case ;-) )

Guess the UK has something similar.

Ah, that makes me rember university time. We found that punk selling drugss in our student-club. Told him that he was to stay there till the police arrived...he made my day by resisting arrest. Somehow he fell over towards a bar table...the rest is history :p
 
#20
Speaking for my turf.
We have the wonderful §127 StPO....I think in the US the similar thing is called "citizen arrest".
There are a few conditions:
-you must be a direct witness, or direct witness must be present of a crime
(You or someone needs to see the crime happening. If your car has been broken in, and you grap the next chav you find on the street...127 does not aply)
-there must be danger of escape or destruction of evidence
(you find him shoplifting, but he gives you his (valid)ID-card...you are not allowed to hold him. Well, ok , thats a constructed case ;-) )

Guess the UK has something similar.
Section 3 of the criminal Law act and Common law.

Very very powerful any person (Not police) powers and not many people know about them.
 
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