Is this a Retention deal for you?

[bob231]

Ask 2* permission to work weekends (assuming that you can find a 1* to ask the question) or work late without question, what do you think is going to happen? I think you're saying that COs should be accountable for their actions, but in reality it is very difficult to implement, though 360 reporting would be a good start.

COs and down. And yes, it will be difficult, damnably so.

Will it be any more difficult than managing with the ongoing retention crisis? Will it be any more difficult than attempting to recast the Army into the shape required for the next war quickly and with minimal casualties?

Why is "it will be really difficult?" a reasonable excuse?

 

[Kroneit44]

COs and down. And yes, it will be difficult, damnably so.

Will it be any more difficult than managing with the ongoing retention crisis? Will it be any more difficult than attempting to recast the Army into the shape required for the next war quickly and with minimal casualties?

Why is "it will be really difficult?" a reasonable excuse?

Why should COs and down get it? Why shouldn't OF5s and above get away with it? The pressure to deliver almost always comes from above.
As for difficulty, when you start adding Joint units into the mix it gets complicated. I know both the RAF and NAVY have a very different perception of how a unit should run compared to the Royal Signals. How do you calibrate that for fairness?
You could do a global implementation across all 3 Services but it would cost a fortune and I suspect raise a new set of issues for Commanders at all ranks. If you look at a unit, the 2IC (assuming LE) is the on who's there to steer the CO. If they're shit or chasing the pink list a bad CO will make life unpleasant. Maybe a separate reporting chain for them? No idea what you do up the chain.

 

[alfred_the_great]

Because it's subjective. Ironing your uniform seems common sense in the Army, it's almost an offence in the other Services.

I resemble that mark...

 

[stacker1]

Ask 2* permission to work weekends (assuming that you can find a 1* to ask the question) or work late without question, what do you think is going to happen? I think you're saying that COs should be accountable for their actions, but in reality it is very difficult to implement, though 360 reporting would be a good start.

Are you saying that CO should just continue to **** their soldiers around free from scrutiny?

I'm not sure what's so hard about writing an email to your boss justifying why your soldiers have to work outside of normal working hours.

In civvie street is a department head in one part of the company thinks he needs his workers to work on the weekend he would generally pay overtime and for that he would need to justify why he cant get the work done in normal hours.

Luckily for COs they are generally exempt that and so it goes unnoticed if their planning skills are utter pump.

 

[stacker1]

Why is "it will be really difficult?" a reasonable excuse?

When people say that, they generally means its new and that they fear change.

 

[Portree Kid]

According to that story the COs didn't lose their ability to work weekends, they just needed to justify it for military reasons.

Ask 2* permission to work weekends (assuming that you can find a 1* to ask the question) or work late without question, what do you think is going to happen?

I must have been in a different Army.

I am really, really struggling to find a weekend where I worked, outside Operations, exercise or the odd occasion of being unlucky enough to draw a weekend duty.

I do not recall too many nights where I had to work late either.

@Kroneit44

Could you enlighten me as to when working weekends become an issue ?

Has all the technological advances ( meant to make life easier ) since I left actually had the opposite effect ?

 

[Kroneit44]

Are you saying that CO should just continue to **** their soldiers around free from scrutiny?

I'm not sure what's so hard about writing an email to your boss justifying why your soldiers have to work outside of normal working hours.

In civvie street is a department head in one part of the company thinks he needs his workers to work on the weekend he would generally pay overtime and for that he would need to justify why he cant get the work done in normal hours.

Luckily for COs they are generally exempt that and so it goes unnoticed if their planning skills are utter pump.

We have mission command mate, as soon as you start unempowering subordinate commanders things go wrong. That doesn't mean that I think COs should get away with being cocks. There are processes in place to stop that. Admittedly they don't work very well but they are there.
It would help if you'd worked in a staff environment but you don't just fire a letter into a 2* asking permission. Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high.

 

[usmarox]

We have mission command mate, as soon as you start unempowering subordinate commanders things go wrong. That doesn't mean that I think COs should get away with being cocks. There are processes in place to stop that. Admittedly they don't work very well but they are there.
It would help if you'd worked in a staff environment but you don't just fire a letter into a 2* asking permission. Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high.

Is it possible that’s part of the problem?

 

[Kroneit44]

@Kroneit44

Could you enlighten me as to when working weekends become an issue ?

Has all the technological advances ( meant to make life easier ) since I left actually had the opposite effect ?

Technological advances mean that you are more available and the laptop rollout being implemented will mean you are available more.
I've only worked weekends in training units or when away on task (separate from Ops) or have been on callout. ARMY is shite at managing TOIL so I could see it being an issue if there is a lot of it going on. I haven't found it to be a problem myself though I would expect someone to work the w/e if I needed them to.

 

[Kroneit44]

Is it possible that’s part of the problem?

Yes, but it reduces the likelihood of them getting the wrong end of the stick and the subsequent man hours wasted answering questions, also part of the problem.

 

[Portree Kid]

echnological advances mean that you are more available and the laptop rollout being implemented will mean you are available more.

Slave to a laptop will do wonders for retention.

I scratch my head and contemplate how we managed with no technology, no internet, nada. Yet working late at night or weekends was pretty uncommon.

Could it be that we had no single strand civvies but had a load of multi stranded squaddies, who would burst a gut during the working week to ensure that there was no need for weekend work ?

 

[stacker1]

We have mission command mate, as soon as you start unempowering subordinate commanders things go wrong. That doesn't mean that I think COs should get away with being cocks. There are processes in place to stop that. Admittedly they don't work very well but they are there.
It would help if you'd worked in a staff environment but you don't just fire a letter into a 2* asking permission. Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high.

1, Things are already wrong.
2, No one is suggesting unempowering COs, they just need to justify their actions if asked. Which Im sure any decent leader could.
3, Generally the Army seems uninterested in COs acting like cocks, that's why some act like cocks, the only time the Army gets agitated is when there is legal action pending or more recently when there is bad PR.

This is you being institulised again, If your commander says tell me why you are making your men work weekend then that is what you do.

How do you think overtime is generally authorized on civvie street?

If you think "Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high" is the problem, what do you think the Army should do about it?
A, Show some leadership and make the changes to improve the procedure?
B, Do **** all because that's the way its always been done?

 

[Kroneit44]

1, Things are already wrong.
2, No one is suggesting unempowering COs, they just need to justify their actions if asked. Which Im sure any decent leader could.
3, Generally the Army seems uninterested in COs acting like cocks, that's why some act like cocks, the only time the Army gets agitated is when there is legal action pending or more recently when there is bad PR.

This is you being institulised again, If your commander says tell me why you are making your men work weekend then that is what you do.

How do you think overtime is generally authorized on civvie street?

If you think "Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high" is the problem, what do you think the Army should do about it?
A, Show some leadership and make the changes to improve the procedure?
B, Do **** all because that's the way its always been done?

We don't do change well. We generally **** change up. I'm all for properly implemented change, but generally flying pig shaped unicorns are spotted before we do it.

 

[stacker1]

We don't do change well. We generally **** change up. I'm all for properly implemented change, but generally flying pig shaped unicorns are spotted before we do it.

Its not that hard to make minor changes to raise morale, save money, improve efficiency. The latter two are quite sought after by civilian companies.

Ill give you an example of how change happens when people are held responsible. How often do civvies working in a mixed military environment get overtime? Odd that COs will go out of their to avoid making civvie work extra when they have to justify extra pay.

 

[bob231]

We have mission command mate, as soon as you start unempowering subordinate commanders things go wrong. That doesn't mean that I think COs should get away with being cocks. There are processes in place to stop that. Admittedly they don't work very well but they are there.
It would help if you'd worked in a staff environment but you don't just fire a letter into a 2* asking permission. Layers of scrutiny, shaping and rewording take place before anything gets that high.

From my tiny experience of "Mission Command" as a matelot*, couldn't this be resolved by Coordinating Instructions stating that out of hours work require 1-Up's approval?

Also, I'm not just talking about subordinates having a means of redress if they're mucked around. Part of the problem - as I see it - is superiors overlooking, tolerating or even encouraging subordinates to muck the troops around iot achieve today's aim. This should not be part of our culture.

*At BRNC, where it is done appallingly.

 

[Portree Kid]

Part of the problem - as I see it - is superiors overlooking, tolerating or even encouraging subordinates to muck the troops around iot achieve today's aim. This should not be part of our culture.

Bob

I asked a question above regarding when this weekend working culture started - Oddly enough, it hasn't been answered.

Based on your comment above. I have to ask the same question - When did this culture start ?

Neither is a culture that I recognise - So the question has to be, how did this creep in over the last 20 years ?

 

[bob231]

I can't honestly answer: my LAND experience has been TA only (where working weekends is, oddly, the norm) and the RN's culture is still extremely protective of weekends alongside. That is part to compensate for operationally-driven harder working routines at sea: Saturday and Sunday routines are now intermittent and as permitted by programme rather than falling on every Saturday and Sunday at sea. I just don't see the Army being at the same op tempo, though.

Sorry to be unhelpful.

 

[Portree Kid]

I can't honestly answer:

Sorry to be unhelpful.

Then I suspect that this.....

Part of the problem - as I see it - is superiors overlooking, tolerating or even encouraging subordinates to muck the troops around iot achieve today's aim. This should not be part of our culture.

..... Is nothing more than

80's - Don't buy a house, don't buy a car - Save all your money and PVR.

90's - This is p1sh - Oddly enough, none of those greetin about p1sh - Could define p1sh.

 

[Gout Man]

Not sure if this has been started elsewhere but apologies if it has.

Retention - ‘Improving the Offer’ in Three Easy Steps » Wavell Room

A personal view on some of the organisational changes the Army could effect to improve retention, without going to the civilian world for a solution.

wavellroom.com

There are a few ideas there for soldiers and officers, but the author contends that 6 months public duties in London would be seen as an incentive to stay in even being used to reward a soldier giving 6 months stability and the bright lights of London.

Do you agree or see this as a way for COs to get rid of trouble makers for a few months?

Would you be encouraged to re-engage if sent for public duties or consider it a reward for being a god soldier?

Just concentrating on soldiers, officers also have suggestions.

I loved a bit of marching up and down the square but we never had a parade like this, mores the pity.

 

[olafthered]

I loved a bit of marching up and down the square but we never had a parade like this, mores the pity.

We did. Squadron disbandment parade... we did the whole sketch before the SSM called us all back to do the proper parade. The police escort were very amused....