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Is the UK becoming a fascist state?

  • Thread starter Deleted 169889
  • Start date
A handy tip for those obsessed with cut 'n paste:

<batwank wibble>

6. Obsession with national security - well given the govts stated in its negotiating outlines that it will not cooperative with the EU with processes such as the EAW, it seems that it is more obsessed with persecuting windrush types and other immigrants than external threats. Indeed, given that brexit consumes everything it was noted by US officials that the UK didn't even bother with the recent Munich security conference

<more batwank wibble>

Spend a minute or two checking the links, as you don't want to be caught out posting anything that is a Whitehouse press statement (dated 2017) in a thread you've entitled 'Is the UK becoming a fascist state?' unless you want to be thought of as a knobthroat sock puppet.

You knobthroat.

ETA: why aren't you using your usual account?
 
D

Deleted 169889

Guest
Do you have an informed source rather than some whiny socialist cherry-picking Nazi policies and ignoring the inconvenient ones?

Do you understand the difference between Fascism and Nazism (and Phalangism and Peronism and Nasserism)?

Fascists and Socialists both believe in the Big State, they both believe in the subordination of the rule of law to the public good (as they define it of course), they both believe that the use of sanctions and force is legitimate to suppress dissent, they both believe in the idea of very limited democracy, if at all, they both use a system of in groups and out groups to exert control and they both believe that media should be controlled.

The essential difference between Socialism and Fascism is that Fascists believe that the Socialist levelling of society can only be achieved on the basis of a shared national, or, in the case of the EU, a shared continental identity, whereas Socialists believe that the levelling of society can be achieved globally on the basis of a shared class identity - this was the point that caused Lenin to fall out with Mussolini, whom he greatly admired - "What a waste that we lost Mussolini. He is a first-rate man who would have led our party to power in Italy."

Fascists shoot people with the wrong passport, Socialists shoot people from the wrong class and both groups shoot anyone who doesn't agree with them. There's very little to choose between you since you're all authoritarian scum.
Are you a hugo boss fanboi?

The academic consensus is that the Nazis were not socialists

It's just an Alt-Reich pseudo-argument
 

rehab44

Old-Salt
Yes, it is



1. Powerful and continuing nationalism - Obviously yes

2. Disdain for human rights - No govt commitment to uphold ECHR charter in post-brexit Britain WATCH: MP says Churchill would be 'turning in his grave' after latest Brexit statement

3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - The judiciary: Enemies of the People (headline) - Wikipedia, remainers, the EU, immigrants etc

4. Rampant sexism - Self explanatory

5. Controlled mass media - The govt are working to abolish the BBC and C4 news which is about the only mass media in the UK that still criticises the conservative govt

6. Obsession with national security - well given the govts stated in its negotiating outlines that it will not cooperative with the EU with processes such as the EAW, it seems that it is more obsessed with persecuting windrush types and other immigrants than external threats. Indeed, given that brexit consumes everything it was noted by US officials that the UK didn't even bother with the recent Munich security conference

7. Religion and government intertwined - A big fat no here

8. Corporate power protected - Also a no with 'F*** business' and lack of consultation with business on UK-EU trade objectives. 'Tech tax' will be an interesting test of the govts ability to resist US demands

9. Labor power suppressed - stated intention of the govt to diverge on labour standards in post-brexit GB

10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts - We've had enough of experts. see also attempts to block Mary Beard from being appointed trustee of British museum for not holding political opinions agreeable to the govt Mary Beard blocked by No 10 as British Museum trustee 'for pro-Europe views'

11. Obsession with crime and punishment - See the zealous 'capital punishment supporting Home sec Patel

12. Rampant cronyism and corruption - Govt effectively glove puppets for disaster capitalists Brexit and Climate Science Denial: Johnson, Gove and Raab – all part of the Tufton Street Network – Byline Times
You are John McDonnell and I claim my 5 Roubles
 
Are you a hugo boss fanboi?

The academic consensus is that the Nazis were not socialists

It's just an Alt-Reich pseudo-argument
It is also the consenus of many 'academics' that Trump is literally the reincarnation of Hitler, and that closer to home, that the Conservative Party are fascists. However, the facts do not support that belief.
 

Chef

LE

This bit made Oi larf and larf:

Anti-militarism – socialists have historically deplored war and conquest, in which working people are forced to murder their counterparts in other countries. From Eugene Debs’ imprisonment for opposing World War I, to the Vietnam protest movement to the Iraq War, socialists have been the ones saying no to aggressive and futile wars and envisioning a world of peace.
 
Yes, it is



1. Powerful and continuing nationalism - Obviously yes

2. Disdain for human rights - No govt commitment to uphold ECHR charter in post-brexit Britain WATCH: MP says Churchill would be 'turning in his grave' after latest Brexit statement

3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - The judiciary: Enemies of the People (headline) - Wikipedia, remainers, the EU, immigrants etc

4. Rampant sexism - Self explanatory

5. Controlled mass media - The govt are working to abolish the BBC and C4 news which is about the only mass media in the UK that still criticises the conservative govt

6. Obsession with national security - well given the govts stated in its negotiating outlines that it will not cooperative with the EU with processes such as the EAW, it seems that it is more obsessed with persecuting windrush types and other immigrants than external threats. Indeed, given that brexit consumes everything it was noted by US officials that the UK didn't even bother with the recent Munich security conference

7. Religion and government intertwined - A big fat no here

8. Corporate power protected - Also a no with 'F*** business' and lack of consultation with business on UK-EU trade objectives. 'Tech tax' will be an interesting test of the govts ability to resist US demands

9. Labor power suppressed - stated intention of the govt to diverge on labour standards in post-brexit GB

10. Disdain for intellectual and the arts - We've had enough of experts. see also attempts to block Mary Beard from being appointed trustee of British museum for not holding political opinions agreeable to the govt Mary Beard blocked by No 10 as British Museum trustee 'for pro-Europe views'

11. Obsession with crime and punishment - See the zealous 'capital punishment supporting Home sec Patel

12. Rampant cronyism and corruption - Govt effectively glove puppets for disaster capitalists Brexit and Climate Science Denial: Johnson, Gove and Raab – all part of the Tufton Street Network – Byline Times

It's missing an absolutely essential component; a charismatic, inspirational and ruthless figurehead who demands and rouses a fanatical and unswerving devotion amongst his followers and causes fear in his critics.

Boris Johnson?

Fuck off.
 
D

Deleted 169889

Guest
It is also the consenus of many 'academics' that Trump is literally the reincarnation of Hitler, and that closer to home, that the Conservative Party are fascists. However, the facts do not support that belief.
Trump is clearly not a Nazi. I don't think that any reputable political scientist is arguing otherwise
 

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
Are you a hugo boss fanboi?

The academic consensus is that the Nazis were not socialists

It's just an Alt-Reich pseudo-argument

Stop squealing and start reading the core literature.

The Nazi programme contained considerable Socialist elements and the only political group Hitler consistently attacked throughout his political career were the forces of conservative reaction - a view which coloured his relations with the Wehrmacht for the entire period of his time in power.

This is a very strange thing for a Fabian like HG Wells to write if Fascism and Socialism are not related:


Not to mention that your hero Karl Marx wrote an essay titled "On the Jewish Question".

Ain't the records a bitch when you're trying to re-write history and claim an academic consensus that only exists amongst incurious academic flotsam and the hopelessly doctrinaire who can't read without moving their lips.
 
Trump is clearly not a Nazi. I don't think that any reputable political scientist is arguing otherwise
Why then are you asking "Is the UK becoming a fascist state" by using links about Trump from the NY Times, Washington Post, CBS News and USA Today?

Of the 15 links you've posted to "prove" your point, 12 of them deal with the USA, and only 3 of them come from UK sources or directly touch on UK issues.

Poor effort. 2/10
 

WALT

War Hero
This bit made Oi larf and larf:

Anti-militarism – socialists have historically deplored war and conquest,

Ah but the Soviets weren't real socialists, the Vietnamese weren't real socialists, the Khymer Rouge weren't real socialists, Castro wasn't a real socialist, the Stasi weren't real socialists, and so on and so on in a whiny long winded drawl....... have I forgotten any?
 
Ah but the Soviets weren't real socialists, the Vietnamese weren't real socialists, the Khymer Rouge weren't real socialists, Castro wasn't a real socialist, the Stasi weren't real socialists, and so on and so on in a whiny long winded drawl....... have I forgotten any?
Were the the International Brigades who fought for the Spanish Republicans socialist?
 
Nazis = National Socialists.

That's a bit like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. If it says it on the label, it's almost certainly not what's inside.
 
To address some of the OP's points:

1. Powerful and continuing nationalism - This is from the 'grassroots', not the government, and we must consider this in the context if mass immigration and multiculturalism being forced on society by government. I don't see how this could be compared with fascism.

2. Disdain for human rights - I strongly disagree with any attempt to abolish/repeal the HRA, but this doesn't, by itself, make our government fascist. In fact, socialism/communism has an appalling reputation when it comes to human rights.
Today's 'progressives' need to take a hard look at themselves, as sone of us consider abortion an affront to the sanctity of life and the dignity of the human person, which is the foundation of human rights.

3. Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - Are you referring to those who assault and threaten innocent people, and try forcing their ideology onto others?

4. Rampant sexism - Not sure where you're getting this from.

5. Controlled mass media - Politicised long ago by the 'political left', not the government.

6. Obsession with national security - Are you shitting me? The Labour Party had a pretty authoritarian approach to this, doing away with the right to fair trial, the right to be released from custody after 48 hours if evidence was insufficient to charge, the right to privacy. Things a fascist government would do.

7. Religion and government intertwined - Labour introduced de facto blasphemy laws, which is something not even hardcore Catholics, such as myself, ever want in the 21st century.

11. Obsession with crime and punishment - See my previous on national security.

12. Rampant cronyism and corruption - Plenty of that in Labour, and all socialist/communist regimes.
 
That's a bit like the Democratic People's Republic of Korea. If it says it on the label, it's almost certainly not what's inside.

I'd still call it a brand of socialism, given the Nazis started out as the German Workers' Party (or somesuch), and got into a coalition government on socialist promises. From there, they simply went the way of most socialist regimes.
 

mercurydancer

LE
Book Reviewer
Ive read this thread, and my erudite conclusion is that is a big bag of boiled bollocks.
 

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