Is the Pakistan Army brave enough to make peace?

#1
Is the Pakistan Army brave enough to make peace?

Sometime in the early morning hours of April 7th, a massive avalanche completely wiped out the Pakistan Army’s battalion headquarters (BHQ) at Ghyari......

However despite all this, the route to India’s positions in the middle of the Saltoro range is much more tortured than its Pakistani counterpart and it costs far more in terms of lives and money – that is until April 7th 2012. With Ghyari gone, the Pakistani logistical advantage in the middle of the Saltoro range is gone.

The most critical supply commodity is of course, kerosene. Without kerosene the soldiers will not have water to drink, heat to cook food and keep themselves warm. In normal circumstances, without water, food and warmth, morale collapses and the mental strength of the soldiers fails. As if that is not enough at such low temperatures, metal tends to contract, and lubricants tend to become ineffective. Even high quality weapons unless heated on a kerosene stove become cold-locked – their metal parts shrunk into dimensions beyond the tolerances laid out by the manufacturers. If you have an artillery piece on the glaciers, you have to heat it with a kerosene stove and fire it a few times regularly just to make sure it stays operational.....

If the Indian Army was feeling particularly bloody minded, it would simply start shelling the Pakistani positions at this time. The smarter Pakistanis on the ridge line would surrender or abandon their posts. The stupider ones would attempt to return fire on India’s positions and exhaust what little fuel there remains at their disposal – and then die of thirst, hunger and frost bite. As the actual ground position line (AGPL) has never been officially demarcated, the IAF would be within its rights to launch air raids across it. These acts by the Indian Army would force the Pakistani Army into a very public surrender. After the Abbotabad raid that killed Osama Bin Laden, the Pakistani Army’s position in Pakistani society is quite precarious. Another public failure like this and the Pakistan Army would be torn to shreds by its Jihadis and ultra-nationalistic chums.....

Then there is the harder path, the braver path – chosen by Sri Manmohan Singh himself. Despite all the insults that the Pakistan Army has heaped on him – despite the fact that COAS Ashfaq Pervez Kayani ignored Sri.Singh’s request to send the head of the ISI to New Delhi after the 26/11 attacks – Sri. Singh has found a Buddha like grace in his heart and offered the Pakistani Army an olive branch. A lesser man than him would have simply asked the boys on the glacier to start the music and had the Bofors belch fire on Pakistani positions – but Sri. Singh has offered to help Pakistan cope with the Ghyari situation. India has the HAA reserves and the Cheetah helicopters that Pakistan vitally needs to keep its army men on the ridge from dying. This is an act of immense compassion that can only come from someone steeped in the deepest traditions of Dharma. Only one sufficiently brave to see an adversary as a human being is capable of such an act of kindness. This offer underscores India’s commitment to peace in the region and beyond.

Will the Pakistani Army be brave enough to accept his offer?
Is the Pakistan Army brave enough to make peace? | The Broad Mind
 
#2
Not about Siachen


Before the euphoria for demilitarization of Siachen grips the country with visions of a peace prize and another ‘landmark’ agreement before the next general elections in 2014 eggs us to draw another foolish line on the map, there is need for serious strategic introspection – ‘paid’ media hollering to ignore military advice notwithstanding. Major fallouts of hurried demilitarization of Siachen are as under:

• Widening the China-Pakistan handshake (collusive threat) to include Gilgit-Baltistan (reportedly being leased out by Pakistan to China for 50 years), Shaksgam Valley (already ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), Saltoro-Siachen region (that Pakistan may reoccupy through “Kashmiri Freedom Fighters” or cede to China), own Sub Sector North (SSN) east of Siachen with Chinese sitting on the northern slopes of the Karakoram Pass if not on top of it already, and Aksai Chin already under Chinese occupation.

• SSN and Eastern Ladakh will become focused objectives of Chinese strategic acupuncture. Defence potential of SSN will be totally degraded with western flank exposed and KK Pass to north, which India stopped patrolling years back for fear of annoying the dragon. We continue to remain thin in Eastern Ladakh against Chinese threat via Aksai Chin – heightened more now with possibility of two front war.

• Our next line of defence will perforce base on Ladakh Range with possibility of Leh coming within enemy artillery range.

• Ladakh and Zanskar Ranges will be targeted for terrorism by ISI nurtured groups while Pakistan will say they are ‘out of control’. ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist outfits with an eye on Ladakh since late 1990s.
The Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS)
 
#3


The roots of the conflict over Siachen lie in the non-demarcations on the western side of the map beyond a grid point known as NJ 9842. Hostilities between India and Pakistan over ownership of the Glacier date back to the first Indo-Pak war of 1948, over the territorial dispute of Jammu & Kashmir. A Cease-Fire Line (CFL) was established as a result of the 1949 Indo-Pak agreement that concluded the war in Jammu & Kashmir. The CFL ran along the international Indo-Pak border and then north and northeast until map grid-point NJ 9842, located near the Shyok River at the base of the Saltoro mountain range. Because no Indian or Pakistani troops were present in the geographically inhospitable northeastern areas beyond NJ 9842, the CFL was not delineated as far as the Chinese border. Both sides agreed, in vague language, that the CFL extends to the terminal point, NJ 9842, and "thence north to the Glaciers".



India's 'North' lies along the ridgeline North (yellow line) and Pakistan's 'North' goes North East (red line)!
 
#4
The version from Pakistan

The fight for Siachen
By Javed Hussain (a retired Brigadier of the SSG)
Published in The Express Tribune (a Pakistani newspaper) April 22, 2012


On April 13, 1984 a small force of the Indian Army occupied the Bilafond La pass. Four days later, another small force occupied the Sia La pass. Both passes, the former at over 18,000 ft and the latter at over 20,000 ft are located in the Saltoro Range and serve as the gateway to the Siachen Glacier. The Indians had moved fast after receiving intelligence that the Pakistan Army was planning to occupy them. The first Pakistani reaction to the occupation of the passes came on April 24/25, 1984 when a small force attempted to get to the Bilafond La in an uphill assault but was thwarted by the difficult glaciated terrain and adverse weather conditions.......

In early April 1987, another attempt was made by the Pakistan Army to gain a foothold on the Saltoro ridgeline. A small force consisting of about a dozen SSG commandos, using ropes and ladders, went up a vertical cliff and occupied a position at over 21,000 ft that dominated the Indian positions at Bilafond La. They named it Quaid post. The Indian Army made several attempts to evict the commandos but each time they were repulsed with heavy casualties. On June 25, 1987, they succeeded in taking the post as the commandos had run out of ammunition and could not be resupplied as the base supporting them came under fire. With the only foothold on the ridgeline lost, the Pakistan Army launched a major attack in September 1987 to get to Bilafond La. The attack was repulsed. In March 1989, another attempt was made, this time in the Chumik glacier, three kilometres east of Giari (recently hit by an avalanche). At over 19,000 ft, the place chosen is the most difficult to scale in the Saltoro Range for either side. In a daring operation the peak was occupied by two men, an officer and a non-commissioned officer, slung from a helicopter on a rope, turn by turn. The two thwarted all Indian efforts to get to the top for 36 hours after which they were reinforced by a handful of soldiers dropped in similar fashion. But in May 1989 when the Indians succeeded in neutralising the supply base supporting the soldiers on the peak, the post was vacated.

In November 1992, yet another attempt was made to get to the ridgeline by means of a major attack. Launched in haste, the attack ended in failure. As a consequence, the general officer commanding was sacked. Most of the casualties suffered by Pakistani troops in combat were in the two major attacks (September 1987, November 1992).

The Indians have rarely embarked on a major offensive venture. They have left this to the Pakistanis who have obliged them at least twice . The loss of Quaid post and withdrawal from the Chumik glacier post ....

The dispute revolves round the extension of the Line of Control (LOC) beyond a point on the Saltoro Range known by its map reference as NJ 9820420. The demarcated LOC ends at this point —“thence north to the glaciers” is what the Karachi agreement of 1949 states about the extension. According to the Indians, this meant that the LoC should extend northwards along the Saltoro Range up to Sia Kangri.

On the other hand, Pakistan’s stand is that beyond NJ 9820420, the LOC should extend eastward up to the Karakoram pass. Extending the LOC northwards would give the entire Siachen Glacier-Saltoro area to India, while extending it eastward would give it to Pakistan.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/368394/the-fight-for-siachen/

Worthy of note is that the Pakistan Brigadier states that Northward (as was in the Agreement on the Cease Fire Line) would mean Siachen and Soltoro is India's.

Going East instead of North would mean it is Pakistan's!
 
#5
IMHO it depends on what matters more to the Pakistanis. Is it money or religious hatred? I assume that ending the fighting would cut government costs. Or is the war financially profitable for their elite? The war does not seem to stop the rest of the world from trading with either Pakistan or India.
 
#6
...
Worthy of note is that the Pakistan Brigadier states that Northward (as was in the Agreement on the Cease Fire Line) would mean Siachen and Soltoro is India's.

Going East instead of North would mean it is Pakistan's!
Any chance that the people living there could decide?
 
#9
The Glacier and all the time, blood and treasure spent by both sides on it represent simultaneously a colossal waste of resources and a typical Indo-Pak cock-measuring competition. The military solution is screamingly obvious, but depends ultimately on politicians on either side having the cojones to sit down and agree that it's not worth the bones of a single Rajput Grenadier, to paraphrase. Until the political top cover is given, the two militaries are condemned to sit glowering glumly at each other way above the 12,000 foot point for no conceivable benefit.
 

BuggerAll

LE
Kit Reviewer
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#10
Given that (alleged) ISI agent s have been arrested trying to smuggle large amounts of explosives into Kabul for an (alleged) attack on GOIRA/ISAAF or anyone else I'd say its a fair bet they a re not interested in making peace.

Indeed the cynic in me wonders if Pakistan (like Saudi Arabia) is part of the problem not part of the solution.
 
#11
If the Siachen is demilitarised and Pakistan surreptitiously occupies it, India can never get it back since it takes 26 days just for acclimatisation!

And it is very difficult to capture any heights that are held.

It will then make a continuous land mass from Pakistan to Aksai Chin (held by China) and Ladakh will be left for the pickings for both China and Pakistan!

Tough choice for India and that is why the occupied in the first place and is maintain it with such costs!

That Pakistan will honour any Agreement is moot!

The Line of Control was demarcated in 1971 between India and Pakistan at Suchetgarh, after the 1971 War.

Notwithstanding that demarcation, Pakistan surreptitiously occupied Kargil Heights in 1999 and it took many Indian lives to recapture those heights once again!
 
#12
If the Siachen is demilitarised and Pakistan surreptitiously occupies it, India can never get it back since it takes 26 days just for acclimatisation!

And it is very difficult to capture any heights that are held.

It will then make a continuous land mass from Pakistan to Aksai Chin (held by China) and Ladakh will be left for the pickings for both China and Pakistan!

Tough choice for India and that is why the occupied in the first place and is maintain it with such costs!

That Pakistan will honour any Agreement is moot!

The Line of Control was demarcated in 1971 between India and Pakistan at Suchetgarh, after the 1971 War.

Notwithstanding that demarcation, Pakistan surreptitiously occupied Kargil Heights in 1999 and it took many Indian lives to recapture those heights once again!

Trust Pakistan with an Agreement? Yeah sure, we can as well trust Al-Qaeda with World Peace :nod:
 
S

Screw_The_Nut

Guest
#13
In this day and age surely India can build a high tech fortress that can accommodate a fighting force more adequately. By the sounds of it, at least what I've read about it, they are huddled in tents and are losing blokes to exposure every day!
 
#14
The whole area is utterly useless to anyone its like sending a force to seize the mariannas trench :(
 
#15
Speaking of Siachen glacier and the day to the day lives of the soldiers who fight for a piece of the inhospitable land, a really good article an Indian friend of mine forwarded me a few years ago:

The Coldest War | Outdoor Adventure | OutsideOnline.com

Some excerpts :

What might be a climber's paradise is instead the site of a harrowing and improbable siege, the highest and coldest combat theater in the history of the world.
Here's what is beyond dispute: Never before have troops fought for such extended periods in such extreme physical conditions.
At least twice a week a man dies, occasionally from bullets or artillery, but more often from an avalanche, a tumble into a crevasse, or a high-altitude sickness—perils usually faced only by elite climbers.
It's all just bat shit crazy! But we humans are bent on self destruction, so doesn't surprise me.
 
#16
[QUOTE

It's all just bat shit crazy! But we humans are bent on self destruction, so doesn't surprise me.[/QUOTE]
Amen to that.
 
#17
The whole area is utterly useless to anyone its like sending a force to seize the mariannas trench :(

For some one who is in a defense forum, you sure know the importance of a Strategic Place:rofl:
 

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