Is the Conservative Party in the process of destroying itself.

FORMER_FYRDMAN

LE
Book Reviewer
#41
Conservative Party destroying itself? One can hope.
 

Wordsmith

LE
Book Reviewer
#42
Conservative Party destroying itself? One can hope.
Whoever inherits the poisoned chalice from May has a near insurmountable obstacle to climb. May has destroyed so much trust in the Tory party, that if the incoming leader tried to rebuild that trust, he'll just be met with a chorus of the opposition parties replaying May's stupidities back to him.

Brexit was a binary decision - either we left the EU or we didn't. No amount of spin can disguise the fact that we didn't leave the EU due to May's utter incompetence. And that is a truly toxic legacy that will be brought up every time the new leader tries to set out his or her policies.
  • "We have strong economic policies"
    • "You didn't Brexit"
  • "We are increasing spending on defence"
    • "Brexit didn't mean Brexit"
  • "We are increasing spending to put more police on the beat"
    • "No deal wasn't better than a bad deal"
Sometimes you can blur the issue by argument and counter argument so that voters who don't follow the ;political argument closely get confused. The lack of Brexit is so clear cut it can never be disguised, airbrushed out or confused.

May bequeaths the Tory party huge problems due to her incompetence, intransigence and idiocy. Compounded by the Tory party's inexplicable failure to remove her when the sheer scale of her failings became apparent.

The Tory party and May truly deserve each other.

Wordsmith
 
#43
While this is a time of political madness from all sides, It really is time for the plebiscite of all stripes to consider going back to first principles, and consider what is the job of government... Also as importantly what is the responsibilities of the nation state.

Of course outside of the fringes of those who want no Government and those who want absolute government, the mainstream left centre and right accept that governance is fundamental to maintaining society. Most of the western world has post WW2 managed to balance individualism against collectivism, with the see-saw between such states being small, however since the end of the Cold War, and the increasing rise of corporate globalisation not so much.

Also with an increase of state intervention into areas that the wider population, used to consider personal responsibility. Just consider the current fetish of 'Taxing the Rich', Had Gordon Brown not add layer upon layer of increasingly complicated tax legislation, including the minefield of 'tax credits', would Tax avoidance be so lucrative, and tax evasion then be easier to bring to book. I am sure all of us here have at least one thing that we think is not the role of government, to be sticking its fingers into.

As I said as crazy and difficult as it sounds, I do think it is time to go back to first principle and ones based, on the priorities of nation state, not the rest of the world. Of course the communists and other useful idiots, will just, say that I am a gammon, fascist, racist, homophobic, bigot isolationist etc etc... But 'I don't care' what those simpletons think matters and they are a minority despite all the overwhelming noise they make.
 
#44
Tory and Labour? No issue there from me. Both parties seem to think that they can do what they want and that people will always vote for them.
I gave up on Labour (I was once a member) when I realised that they had given up on people like me [White working class]. I lent towards Conservative but them wrecking Brexit has ended that. I trust neither party.


Although I'm a strong supporter of Trade Unions, NOT extreme versions, I've never voted for labour. Dabbled back in the day with the Liberals, who morphed into the lib dems. Finally went tory. My reason for changing ship was simple. I used my vote for what I, rightly or wrongly thought was best for my country. I jumped ship as parties changed their policy, especially regarding nuclear defence.

We're all aware how much more would have been available for schools, hospitals, police and numerous other public services, if the money spent on Trident was diverted to those needy departments. ( I am talking about the cold war period.) The main points the CND supporters seemed unable to grasp were, the atomic/hydrogen bombs could not be uninvented, therefore how could we defend ourself against a nuclear attack? Certainly not with teachers, nurses/doctors, or PC49. Under threat of nuclear annihilation, if the equivalent of the nazi jackboot had goose-stepped down Pall Mall, we would have been well and truly stuffed. I know it didn't happen, but then we did keep Trident.

Since then I've voted conservative, but switched to UKIP at the 2015 election. I was then stupid enough to believe the tories when they said they'd honour the referendum result. Silly me, but no more! Until we get out of the EU completely, and quite possibly until the wooden overcoat is worn, I will never vote for any of the mainstream, so called "parties" again. Thoroughly and utterly pissed off up to my eyeballs with all of them.
 
#45
While this is a time of political madness from all sides, It really is time for the plebiscite of all stripes to consider going back to first principles, and consider what is the job of government... Also as importantly what is the responsibilities of the nation state.

Of course outside of the fringes of those who want no Government and those who want absolute government, the mainstream left centre and right accept that governance is fundamental to maintaining society. Most of the western world has post WW2 managed to balance individualism against collectivism, with the see-saw between such states being small, however since the end of the Cold War, and the increasing rise of corporate globalisation not so much.

Also with an increase of state intervention into areas that the wider population, used to consider personal responsibility. Just consider the current fetish of 'Taxing the Rich', Had Gordon Brown not add layer upon layer of increasingly complicated tax legislation, including the minefield of 'tax credits', would Tax avoidance be so lucrative, and tax evasion then be easier to bring to book. I am sure all of us here have at least one thing that we think is not the role of government, to be sticking its fingers into.

As I said as crazy and difficult as it sounds, I do think it is time to go back to first principle and ones based, on the priorities of nation state, not the rest of the world. Of course the communists and other useful idiots, will just, say that I am a gammon, fascist, racist, homophobic, bigot isolationist etc etc... But 'I don't care' what those simpletons think matters and they are a minority despite all the overwhelming noise they make.

Welcome to my world, and the other17.4 million inhabitants.
 
#49
Both of the two traditional major parties are patrician in their respective ways and neither provide a home for people who do not wish to be nannied or led uncomplaining by the nose.

The two greatest barriers to any new alternative are voter apathy and the FPTP system.
 
#50
Seems that I, others on this thread had a loyalty to the Tories till 2015, voted UKIP/ Leave, then went back to the Tories after they promised to "Leave".
Not only that, I was an active member of my local Association. Sadly no more, and my money now goes to the BREXIT party. Once the EU elections are over and TBP win a few bye-elections, people will I think realise that they are a potential major player in UK politics and once that happens, both Tory and Labour support will disappear as quickly as the water did when 633 Sqn visited the Mohne and Eder dams
 
#51
The last three years have just shown how genuine the contempt is among the political classes for the electorate, or whatever the word is they use for us in private.
This is, for me at least, a welcome chance to show our contempt for them which is long overdue. By them I mean the main parties of any hue.
 
#52
I did puzzle over that post
I don’t think you have appreciated us retaking them for you.
But think the addition of ‘would’ might be what you meant.
“I don’t think you would have appreciated us retaking them for you.”
...and you could be right, but had you pitched in to help a little more overtly it would have been appreciated.

As it was, despite certain members of Congress and the Administration who were pro Argentina, and British/Thatcher understanding that it was a US foreign policy imperative that the US remain neutral, the support both morale wise and materially from Reagan and others was deeply appreciated. It gave Britain back their self respect and confidence in this country and it’s ability to look after itself and those who wished to remain part of it.

It can only be hoped that the various politicians and their supporters in this country who feel we now can no longer support ourselves, and, need the ‘help’ of others, who we are incidentally giving huge sums of money to, will be shown that the majority of the people in this country believe we can, and should, continue to run this country, to suit our needs, while assisting others. Not be paying others tell us what to be doing, and demanding more and more and more money from us, every year, while insulting us and ignoring legitimate requests from us.

With regard to the massive support and gains the Brexit party are continuing to make, the mood of the country and their desire to complete the EU referendum mandate, it should now be quite clear, to all the MP’s, not just of the Conservatives, but of all parties, who have done their best to frustrate what was quite clearly the wish of the people as a whole, that their failure do abide by that democratically expressed wish, will result in them being electorally punished!!
 
#53
For 3 years assorted politicians and civil servants have prevaricated, deceived, lied, and generally postponed doing anything useful.
In the Brexit referendum a majority voted to leave the EU.
Now despite the numerous cries of " it's difficult, very technical, " etc, that basic " leave the EU" is very simple.
We could have done that in 2016.
Thereafter the politicians, civil servants et al could have filled their time dotting Is and crossing t s to their hearts content, because the basic job of " leave the EU" would have been delivered.

By now, we may even have had a change of mind and rejoined, though I doubt it.

Brexit's been compared to divorce. In divorce, in most cases one partner leaves, immediately. Thereafter both former partners, with their lawyers, pick over the bones of the marriage and settle plans for the future.
So why have politicians tried to do it back to front?
 
#54
I did puzzle over that post


But think the addition of ‘would’ might be what you meant.
“I don’t think you would have appreciated us retaking them for you.”
...and you could be right, but had you pitched in to help a little more overtly it would have been appreciated.

As it was, despite certain members of Congress and the Administration who were pro Argentina, and British/Thatcher understanding that it was a US foreign policy imperative that the US remain neutral, the support both morale wise and materially from Reagan and others was deeply appreciated. It gave Britain back their self respect and confidence in this country and it’s ability to look after itself and those who wished to remain part of it.

It can only be hoped that the various politicians and their supporters in this country who feel we now can no longer support ourselves, and, need the ‘help’ of others, who we are incidentally giving huge sums of money to, will be shown that the majority of the people in this country believe we can, and should, continue to run this country, to suit our needs, while assisting others. Not be paying others tell us what to be doing, and demanding more and more and more money from us, every year, while insulting us and ignoring legitimate requests from us.

With regard to the massive support and gains the Brexit party are continuing to make, the mood of the country and their desire to complete the EU referendum mandate, it should now be quite clear, to all the MP’s, not just of the Conservatives, but of all parties, who have done their best to frustrate what was quite clearly the wish of the people as a whole, that their failure do abide by that democratically expressed wish, will result in them being electorally punished!!

Well said sir
 
#55
That's my postal vote sent (I'm off to France next week). Until someone gets a grip of senior civil servants democracy is dead and we are in the doo doo.

Remember, whoever you vote for the govenment always gets in.
 
#56
Both of the two traditional major parties are patrician in their respective ways and neither provide a home for people who do not wish to be nannied or led uncomplaining by the nose.

The two greatest barriers to any new alternative are voter apathy and the FPTP system.
the whole episode is worth listening too... However addressing your statement "neither provide home for people who do not wish to be nannied or led uncomplaining by the nose" just look at the proposed legislation for the internet.


says it all.
 
#57
For 3 years assorted politicians and civil servants have prevaricated, deceived, lied, and generally postponed doing anything useful.
In the Brexit referendum a majority voted to leave the EU.
Now despite the numerous cries of " it's difficult, very technical, " etc, that basic " leave the EU" is very simple.
We could have done that in 2016.
Thereafter the politicians, civil servants et al could have filled their time dotting Is and crossing t s to their hearts content, because the basic job of " leave the EU" would have been delivered.

By now, we may even have had a change of mind and rejoined, though I doubt it.

Brexit's been compared to divorce. In divorce, in most cases one partner leaves, immediately. Thereafter both former partners, with their lawyers, pick over the bones of the marriage and settle plans for the future.
So why have politicians tried to do it back to front?
Quite simply because most of them don't want to leave. After all, without the EU to blame for everything and anything, they might have to start thinking for themselves.
 

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