Is the army racist unintentionally during the recruitment process

Prospect1

Clanker
Hi ,
A thought provoking title I know but hear me out.
Today I attended assessment centre. Everything was going fine until the dreaded medical. Waiting to be seen I was sat with two Fijians and a girl of African decent. We were all sat away from the rest of the candidates. After a short while I was moved to sit with the others.
I went into see the doctor and was immediately bombarded with questions about my family heritage. I’m mixed race half English half Jamaican. Was born in England etc but I was then deferred pending the result of a sickle cell trait test.
Now I understand the reasons behind it as people of certain ethnic minorities are at a higher risk than Caucasians for example. But surely this makes assessment centre harder to pass for ethnic minorities over white candidates. Why don’t the army provide these tests as part of rgmd for BAME applicants save them going to assessment centre to be deferred? Furthermore why do the army outsource this to Nuffield hospital when they could do the tests on sites at assessment centres ?
Penny for your thoughts !
 

No it is not racist, in short.

Oh and a quick Google says this test is well beyond what they could do at the AC and may require a genetic test. As this is not the NAAFI I am being restrained but people who cry racist at the drop of a hat are unlikely to be popular with their peers in training. Think about it.
 
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theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Hi ,
A thought provoking title I know but hear me out.
Today I attended assessment centre. Everything was going fine until the dreaded medical. Waiting to be seen I was sat with two Fijians and a girl of African decent. We were all sat away from the rest of the candidates. After a short while I was moved to sit with the others.
I went into see the doctor and was immediately bombarded with questions about my family heritage. I’m mixed race half English half Jamaican. Was born in England etc but I was then deferred pending the result of a sickle cell trait test.
Now I understand the reasons behind it as people of certain ethnic minorities are at a higher risk than Caucasians for example. But surely this makes assessment centre harder to pass for ethnic minorities over white candidates. Why don’t the army provide these tests as part of rgmd for BAME applicants save them going to assessment centre to be deferred? Furthermore why do the army outsource this to Nuffield hospital when they could do the tests on sites at assessment centres ?
Penny for your thoughts !

it isn't racist to attempt to reduce the risk to the individual and therefore to the organisation as well.
 

anglo

LE
Hi ,
A thought provoking title I know but hear me out.
Today I attended assessment centre. Everything was going fine until the dreaded medical. Waiting to be seen I was sat with two Fijians and a girl of African decent. We were all sat away from the rest of the candidates. After a short while I was moved to sit with the others.
I went into see the doctor and was immediately bombarded with questions about my family heritage. I’m mixed race half English half Jamaican. Was born in England etc but I was then deferred pending the result of a sickle cell trait test.
Now I understand the reasons behind it as people of certain ethnic minorities are at a higher risk than Caucasians for example. But surely this makes assessment centre harder to pass for ethnic minorities over white candidates. Why don’t the army provide these tests as part of rgmd for BAME applicants save them going to assessment centre to be deferred? Furthermore why do the army outsource this to Nuffield hospital when they could do the tests on sites at assessment centres ?
Penny for your thoughts !
What you are implying, is because they're looking after your health, they are racist,

Furthermore why do the army outsource this to Nuffield hospital when they could do the tests on sites at assessment centres ?

Maybe, that's in case if there is a complication later on, there is a third party involvement needed
 
The Army is not responsible for the recruiting process, that is down to Capita.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
If I remember correctly, the last time I took bloods for a sickle cell test (was a while back) there was a time limit to get it to the lab for them to check. It's much easier to have these things done near to the lab rather than involve a more complicated transport for only a few samples
 

Prospect1

Clanker
The recruits that died were commonwealth applicants so my doctors records are a tad more reliable I’d say.

I’ve already had a sickle cell tests as most BAME people are tested at birth ! So again surely this could be covered during your RGMD Forms.
And surely it’s unfair if two people of the same skill level age weight height and job choice go to assessment centre but the only reason the one can’t pass is due to their ethnic origins that surely disadvantages others. Also it takes up valuable spaces on assessment centre days that somebody else could have had !
I’m not angry at what they are asking just more the process of how it’s done could it be done with rgmd before you go to AC etc
Surely there’s a better way I was also left until last and the doctor said it was for that reason. Personally I’d have rather been told this this morning then it wouldn’t have been a waste of a day. I passed the rest of the medical btw no other issues
 

Prospect1

Clanker
If I remember correctly, the last time I took bloods for a sickle cell test (was a while back) there was a time limit to get it to the lab for them to check. It's much easier to have these things done near to the lab rather than involve a more complicated transport for only a few samples
Thanks for that info and I could see why this would be an issue
 
The recruits that died were commonwealth applicants so my doctors records are a tad more reliable I’d say.

I'm British by birth with Commonwealth ancestry and my advice to you is to stop digging and dry your eyes. Get the test done then come back. People of all races get deferred from AC for all sorts of random reasons.

In case you don't know the Army takes racism very, very seriously. Levelling a false accusation of it because something didn't go as you would have preferred is a big deal. With this attitude you will not be popular but you still have time to sort yourself out.
 

Prospect1

Clanker
It's down to the medical condition not the ethnic origin. If that condition is prevalent in one group of society then it's coincidental, the medics making the amassment aren't closet racists and using it as an excuse. People get refusals from the army on medical grounds all the time for other conditions they have no control over - hearing, vision, asthma, diabetes etc. Tough as it may feel being in the the military is about putting service above self and sometimes people just aren't physically up to the required standards through no fault of their own.
Let me try to answer each of your points
Firstly I don’t have the medical condition as it would already be on my RGMD forms if I did.
Secondly I’m not blaming the medical staff who dealt with me today they are following procedure it’s the procedure I’m questioning.
I’m questioning the fairness and equality regarding two people going to assessment centre and I’m already a defer before I’ve even completed anything. Yet a white or Caucasian candidate will not be questioned further yet I will ? On the basis of race ?
People are using the term duty of care ... yet the don’t test everybody ? Duty of care why are they still doing live firing at Castlemartin after several soldiers have been killed there on exercise !
Also it’s purely a money spinner due to the fact everybody in the uk born after 2006 is now tested at birth(so down to a private contract) Yet again a disadvantage for me and others due to our age. Another protected characteristic ?
 
Welcome to the Army. This is just your first taste of Infuriating Frustration with procedures that are the way that they are: "Because we're 'ere lad" It's got nowt to do with any ulterior motive. Other than that you'll love it.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Let me try to answer each of your points
Firstly I don’t have the medical condition as it would already be on my RGMD forms if I did.
Secondly I’m not blaming the medical staff who dealt with me today they are following procedure it’s the procedure I’m questioning.
I’m questioning the fairness and equality regarding two people going to assessment centre and I’m already a defer before I’ve even completed anything. Yet a white or Caucasian candidate will not be questioned further yet I will ? On the basis of race ?
People are using the term duty of care ... yet the don’t test everybody ? Duty of care why are they still doing live firing at Castlemartin after several soldiers have been killed there on exercise !
Also it’s purely a money spinner due to the fact everybody in the uk born after 2006 is now tested at birth(so down to a private contract) Yet again a disadvantage for me and others due to our age. Another protected characteristic ?


1. accept that you are not going to get the answer you are wanting on here.

2. the risk for those of a particular racial origin (regardless of country of birth) is higher for sickle cell. Sickle cell anaemia is a genetic condition which causes all kinds of issues with blood, that somewhat essential item for you to live. on the plus side it's likely to make the sufferer immune to Malaria. incidentally there are good reports of the latest attempt to create a malaria vaccine.

3. side effects of sickle cell anaemia are not compatible with service life (not even the RAF) as it can lead to difficulty with carrying oxygen round the body, an increased risk of infection and sickle cell crises, which can be very severe and last up to a week.
then there is the growth issues, lung disorders and strokes.


accept that you are being treated correctly to check you are not going to be a risk to yourself.


The deaths due to sickle cell have lead to a change in the procedures. If you expect the deaths at an exercise area to mean the exercises are stopped there forever would equate to us barring all BAME people from the forces forever.
 

theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Also it’s purely a money spinner due to the fact everybody in the uk born after 2006 is now tested at birth(so down to a private contract) Yet again a disadvantage for me and others due to our age. Another protected characteristic ?


sickle cell testing is OFFERED.

Sickle cell screening during pregnancy​

Screening to check if a baby's at risk of being born with sickle cell disease is offered to all pregnant women in England.

In parts of England where sickle cell disease is more common, pregnant women are offered a blood test to check if they carry sickle cell.

In areas where sickle cell disease is less common, a questionnaire about your family origins is used to work out whether you should have a blood test for sickle cell.

You can also ask to have the blood test even if your family origins do not suggest your baby would be at high risk of sickle cell disease.
 

Prospect1

Clanker
No, on the medically risk assessed probability of you having a serious condition incomparable with military service. Kinda similiar to them asking for further information from a doctor if someone has had asthma in the past, but not doing so for those who've never had any symptoms.
Exactly my point I was tested when I was younger didn’t have sickle cell. So why now ask for proof of this when they aren’t asking everybody else for proof ?
what I’m trying to say I is if it’s u diagnosed then why try to find something they don’t do that with asthma if it’s not on med forms they don’t then test people who are higher in risk for that which is incompatible
Also sickle cell trait isn’t a bar to entry and doesn’t affect medical deployability!
I get I’m higher in risk not arguing that fact. I just think they could do the blood test once you’ve been given the green light from your mrs forms that way they are not wasting them on people who haven’t passed medical papers.
 

Prospect1

Clanker
1. accept that you are not going to get the answer you are wanting on here.

2. the risk for those of a particular racial origin (regardless of country of birth) is higher for sickle cell. Sickle cell anaemia is a genetic condition which causes all kinds of issues with blood, that somewhat essential item for you to live. on the plus side it's likely to make the sufferer immune to Malaria. incidentally there are good reports of the latest attempt to create a malaria vaccine.

3. side effects of sickle cell anaemia are not compatible with service life (not even the RAF) as it can lead to difficulty with carrying oxygen round the body, an increased risk of infection and sickle cell crises, which can be very severe and last up to a week.
then there is the growth issues, lung disorders and strokes.


accept that you are being treated correctly to check you are not going to be a risk to yourself.


The deaths due to sickle cell have lead to a change in the procedures. If you expect the deaths at an exercise area to mean the exercises are stopped there forever would equate to us barring all BAME people from the forces forever.
Sickle cell anemia is different to sickle cell trait !
Sickle cell is a bar to service , sickle cell trait is not a bar to service and from the army’s own literature if you have sickle cell trait it doesn’t even affect medical deployability ! So they are looking for something that if you had would more often than not be on your medical files
 
Yet a white or Caucasian candidate will not be questioned further yet I will ? On the basis of race ?

It may have something to do with this fact, like it or not.

Sickle cell disease is more common in certain ethnic groups, including:

People of African descent, (among whom 1 in 12 carries a sickle cell gene)
Hispanic-Americans from Central and South America
People of Middle Eastern, Asian, Indian, and Mediterranean descent

Nothing to do with race, everything to to do with a medical condition, which, unfortunately is prevalent amongst a particular racial group. SCD occurs at an incidence of 1:365 black births, SCT occurs at a rate of 1:12 black births. Granted, it may appear in certain Southern European groups, but this is exceedingly uncommon.

With regards SCT and SCD occuring in caucasian populations, this may be of interest. The sickle cell gene is widely distributed among populations of southern Europe, the Middle East, and India, reflecting diffusion of African genetic material during a millennium or more of the east African slave trade.

So again, not racist, just duty of care. If this process elicits racism in your mind, then perhaps the military is not for you, as I am fairly sure racism will manifest itself for you in every aspect of military life. This will not only proof unfair for your peers, but will prove detrimental for position within the peer group.

Now, after that serious and reasoned response, I must dash off and post something equally unreasoned and thoughtless in the NAAFI. Being sensible is not for the weak you know!
 
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theoriginalphantom

MIA
Book Reviewer
Sickle cell anemia is different to sickle cell trait !
Sickle cell is a bar to service , sickle cell trait is not a bar to service and from the army’s own literature if you have sickle cell trait it doesn’t even affect medical deployability ! So they are looking for something that if you had would more often than not be on your medical files


"More often than not"

So you admit there is no guarantee that it will be on the medical files. Therefore could well be missing, and therefore could allow someone with it to be missed and become an unnecessary casualty. One that could be prevented by a simple test.

In my opinion it would be racist to not take these differences into account.

You are now being a troll and shall be treated as such.

We shall no longer be corresponding on this, or any other, subject. I bid you a good day sir.


(Click)

Silence
 

threaders144

Old-Salt
Just to remind you, the military don’t have to give you a job; the psychometric tests, interviews, medical, etc are all factors of deciding whether they want you. The evidence of individuals to suffer negatively with Sickle Cell Trait in the military makes it a factor that they can screen for - for your best interests. It would be exactly the same processes if the science and statistics illustrated that Caucasian individuals had an increased risk; their medical would require more scrutiny.

Either accept that, or remove your application.
 

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