Is modern discipline failing

#1
I for one disagree with the new discipline regime within the army as a whole.
It seems like we have given up on the basics of the discipline system. The young amongst us today have no fear of the system and we cannot practise punishments at a troop level.
Some of the ASBO 67 punishments are laughable and the SSM these days cannot really issue any punishment without triplicate paperwork.
What happened to the good old days of a rhino stopper from the troop staffy and subject closed ?
 
#2
Thats not only happening in the Forces but out in civvy street.

Kids at school have no respect
 
#3
specialisedwill said:
I for one disagree with the new discipline regime within the army as a whole.
It seems like we have given up on the basics of the discipline system. The young amongst us today have no fear of the system and we cannot practise punishments at a troop level.Some of the ASBO 67 punishments are laughable and the SSM these days cannot really issue any punishment without triplicate paperwork.
What happened to the good old days of a rhino stopper from the troop staffy and subject closed ?
My bold.

But you can practice the new discipline system at Troop Level (assuming of course you are on about AGAI 67?) and in fact one of the fundamental benefits of this system is that at a stroke it empowered our junior commanders.

The issue therefore is with your unit's application of AGAI 67 or its perceived lack of trust in its NCO's - but not with "the new discipline regime within the army as a whole"
 
#4
I fcuked up on stag in GW1, nodded off after a 4 hour stag, I was young, stupid and, well, tired. My section commander kindly woke me up with a boot to the head.
An hour later my troop staffy took me round the back of a land rover and punched me square in the face causing instant swelling and a shiner you could spot from space.

Did I complain, did I fcuk.
Did I deserve it. Yes I did.
Did I fall asleep on stag again. Did I fcuk.

Instant justice and lesson learnt. The youth of today would probably have had both their careers for that.
 
#5
most older blokes have experienced that sort of F.D. i know i did as a young bayonet.

it usually had the desired effect BUT it would not work nowadays (unfortunately)
 
#6
In my day......a good regimental scrub with many bass brooms and vim done the trick ...those where the days!!!!!!
 
#7
boris7 said:
In my day......a good regimental scrub with many bass brooms and vim done the trick ...those where the days!!!!!!
Only for grotty, smelly fcukers who failed to realise that the other side of the double doors at the end of the billet housed a shower block and not a 1940s gas chamber.
 
#8
devilish said:
I fcuked up on stag in GW1, nodded off after a 4 hour stag, I was young, stupid and, well, tired. My section commander kindly woke me up with a boot to the head.
An hour later my troop staffy took me round the back of a land rover and punched me square in the face causing instant swelling and a shiner you could spot from space.

Did I complain, did I fcuk.
Did I deserve it. Yes I did.
Did I fall asleep on stag again. Did I fcuk.

Instant justice and lesson learnt. The youth of today would probably have had both their careers for that.
you got off lightly. the Romans would have executed you for falling asleep on stag :)
 
#9
Discipline hasn’t changed and the application of discipline shouldn’t be a swift punch to the head, this is only the tactic of a bully.

What’s required is a longer period of basic training where the civilian is removed from the recruit and replaced with a military mindset which knows and respects the discipline system.

Additionally the Commander at all levels needs to know the meaning of “Moral courage” and apply the correct level of discipline at the correct time, not only keeping the individual in line but also demonstrating to all the others that stepping out of line produces this effect.

There are however, some areas where we need to step back to reinforce the discipline chain.

Officers calling enlisted men by their first name, I worked long and hard to gain rank and for god damm sure, a sprog officer has no right to call me by my first name.

Enlisted men using officers first names, see above “Moral Courage” don’t let it happen. This erodes respect and hence degrades discipline.

Corporals and Sergeants living upto their responsibilities. Use your rank wisely, manage your men and be good mess members. Lead by example.

Sappers, should expect to earn respect, not get an automatic right to it. They shouldn’t get red and yellow cards. What they should get is a beret and a badge and pride in being called a sapper, when they have shown they deserve this privilege. And if they step out of line they should expect quick, fair punishment. They should then take this like a man and move on, lesson learned.

Finally, I suspect that most of you are experienced to know don’t blame the lads, lead by example because the buck stops at the top and if the lads are lacking respect, in the end its our fault for not doing enough to instil this quality.
 
#10
WFG, agreed to a certain extent, but if you have a gobby tw@t who thinks he knows the system, thinks he knows you cannot shout, insult, threaten, punish, repremand, harass, or (torture) ;-) him then you have an individual who will not respect the rank(you so rightfully deserve) or the individual. A twat in the mouth is sometimes the only language they respect because this is the environment they are brought up in.

Another little incident in my long but peppered career involved a section commander, myself and a loose battery clamp. I picked a vehicle up from workshops and drove it(after doing a first parade on it) no less than 500m to our vehicle park, dropped the keys in to our troop seargent and went for a brew. 5 minutes later, my section commander comes into the restroom and tell me he wants a word. I go into the empty office with him, he tells me the battery post has burnt out on the vehicle and I've not done a first parade on the vehicle, I say I did, he tw@ts me, I tw@t him back harder. I would have took the punch on the chin(no pun intended) if I had genuinely fcuked up, but I know I checked the vehicle, I believed everything was ok on the vehicle. End result, he respected me more for having the courage to tw@t him back. It's called standing up for yourself.

I don't think I was bullied, I think it was just the way it was back then. Now we have a fluffy, cuddly society who molly coddle our youth and treat them with kid gloves and then expect them to go out and do a mans job.

Sometimes a smack in the mouth is exactly what is required in certain situations, especially in a operational environment.

*Disclaimer* I've been on the p!ss most of the day, so this might not look too good in the morning!

End Rant.
 
#11
WitchfinderGeneral said:
Discipline hasn’t changed and the application of discipline shouldn’t be a swift punch to the head, this is only the tactic of a bully.

What’s required is a longer period of basic training where the civilian is removed from the recruit and replaced with a military mindset which knows and respects the discipline system.
Well said - don't lower the bar, lengthen the run up.

msr
 
#12
FD its the way ahead like what has already been said the agai system doesnt stop sprogs from repeated offences, and a quick walk round the back for the duty haymaker might make them think twice, and stop them being so gobby and useless
 

chimera

LE
Moderator
#13
WitchfinderGeneral said:
Officers calling enlisted men by their first name, I worked long and hard to gain rank and for god damm sure, a sprog officer has no right to call me by my first name.

Enlisted men using officers first names, see above “Moral Courage” don’t let it happen. This erodes respect and hence degrades discipline.

Corporals and Sergeants living upto their responsibilities. Use your rank wisely, manage your men and be good mess members. Lead by example.
Spot on.
 
#14
There are ways and means of making the Corps run better but, in all respect to those older and wiser than me, which is most of you, every gobby sprog nowadays has to be treated in a diferent way, smack one, take anothers weekend away, use his arrogance to make him look like a cnut.

AGAI 67 and the works only cover a few,let then section commanders make the right move.
 
#15
Engineer Discipline was built on the foundations of our forefathers in the Corps laid.
'FD' worked.
The bullying admittedly hid behind the old ways but FD itself worked. If you can differentiate between the two, the FD and the bullying then youre onto a winner.
I see lads in my Troop who deserve a bit of FD. It'd properly set them straight, really. But no, they get AGAI'd repeatedly and spiral down in the hole it digs them, they get disillusioned, keep then getting in the sh*t, eventually turning them into another admin case for 1 (UK) Civ Div.
Pity.
One decent 'talking to' FD stylee would set them on track a whole lot more efficiently than AGAI ever would. AGAI is minor ADMIN action? What's the use of taking an admin cluster and trying to administrate him? Short sharp scares work wonders.

If I walk round Gib I cant reprimand the Soldiers in Training if I see them doing something wrong. I have to ASK them for their Name, Troop and Sqn and report it up the chain.

What a complete and utter load of tosh. If a SOLDIER is fkking up, they should be reprimanded there and then. That's why it's all going to pot, they are brought up on Corporals and Sergeants who cannot touch them, when they get to the Corps proper, they still carry this ideal and still believe it as all that can be done is wave bits of paper under their noses.



We are still the British Army, arent we? Rank structures, Sgt Majors that bark and bite, Corporals that induce fear not fluffiness? Can we go back to acting like it please?
 
#16
During WW2 RE discipline was fair, but never excessive.

The pride of being a Sapper made it so, that all made an effort to look like soldiers, even though we lived in dirty holes in the ground, Most mornings we would have a section parade, even within touching distance of the enemy.
We looked a pretty bedraggled lot, most of us had not seen a barber, and we wore some pretty filthy denims. Indeed, the best description would be of a bunch of scruffy pirates. But we washed and shaved in cold water where we could find it. During my time, I had one change of clothing and one shower....... never a haircut.

One thing where discipline came into force, was that before we sallied forth that day we had to look something like one of HM forces. Odd articles of clothing that were not "issue" were not tolerated. Not on any circumstances.
So each morning a section inspection to ensure we looked something like a soldier, If we were to be killed, or wounded, that day, at least we would look like a dead Soldier...... makes me laugh now.
Though I never quite understood why we had to look tidy while in the middle of a minefield, mine clearing with the added danger of Shu mines and S mines scattered in amongst the Tellers. All the time under mortar fire.
I suppose discipline worked pretty well. It kept us together and made us a UNIT. I cannot imagine a battle experienced unit without proper discipline. It would never work.
Swordman.
 
#17
Most of the old and bold (and I'm firmly at the furthest end of my career) have suffered "FD" at one stage or another. Some of us may even have dealt it out occaisionally. The poblem is that rarely is it an even handed occurance. I have witnessed on more than one occaision similar misdemeanours occur where the average built, quieter sapper got a swift dig and the more solidly built, more likely to hit back sapper didn't.

Now I'm not making comment on the character of the people involved but I'm sure others of you ARRSers out there have seen the same thing.

Unless you are genuinely the hardest man in the troop and also the troop SSgt there will always be a time when "FD" will bite you on the arrse and this has always been true.

In my younger days I had reason to be "taken round the back' by my section commander. We went round had a "chat" and then I walked back round to the troop whilst he picked himself up. Believe me, this did absolutely nothing for his credibility as I (for a short space in time) acheived an underserved notoriety. Consequently my life was then made hell by him and his buddies.

Some would say I should have just accepted the digs and moved on, but I truely believed that I hadn't done anything wrong and that if I had just let him twat me then he would have getting away with laying his hands on me purely because he was a Cpl. This is exacly the description of a bully and therin lies a very slippery slope.

Now I don't disagree that some of the little fukctards know the system very well indeed, so it's important that we as leaders, at every level, learn it as well. Identify what the bloke holds most dear be it money, time doing voluntary work, whatever and take it away from him. Continue to do this until he is back in the fold, the AGAI system is incredibly flexible if you have a good OC. He can be found wanting on his last of 5 parade days and re AGAI'd if the political will is there. Fails again, charge him, 3 month bender, application for dismissal from service, there are plenty of options; use the system to your benefit.

Anyway, I'm sure plenty will disagree and for a good chunk of my career, I would have to. Doesn't mean I didn't want to twat plenty of people I've worked with, just meant that I've gotten through to my pension without being slung out. (Just)
 
#18
I come from the days when "those were the days" had not been thought of. I was never really aware of any overt discipline system. Blokes knew what was expected of them, seniors knew how to supervise without being overbearing and the officers were from classes used to having servants so they knew about looking after assets first before themselves. Traing was hard but it laid down the foundations so that things could work that way. Knowing from training what hard soldiering was all about, soldiers obeyed as they knew a fist to the face hurt - physically but just as much mentally.
The civilian world got - just let me use the phrase - softer. I'm not saying it should not have. The swell of those changes is now well and truly come ashore in the Forces. People now grandparents do not approve of physical punishment, parents of today have never known it and the services get the offspring of these two generations.
From my experience with civilians over a longer period than I was 'in', I know that they can learn discipline (i.e. bahaving and doing what the boss says in civvy speak) but it has to come from respect for the man at the top. Not kowtow, touching forelock but having pride in the team (small) and the team (big) so they want to do their best. If you can get civilians to really work, stand back as they are dead keen.
It is gaining that respect that is the trick.
Easy if you are doing it with Engrs - I always thought of them as cavalry but with brains.
 
#19
As a Corporal of our great corps i truly believe that once you have hit them you have lost all credibility within your troop. Gone are the days of FD when you got a shoeing for doing something pretty stupid. BLU-97 you are bang on right the smaller troop menbers get it and the bigger lads get away with it. And me not being one of the biggest lads dont see the point in making myself look like a twat. The AGAI system does work you just have to stick with it.
 
#20
very interesting to read the attitude of the "Modern" Sapper. During the WW2 service I never knew of anyone being touched by any NCO, or Officer....Ever! No one ever laid hand on another. That was strictly taboo.

If it had happened, there would have been hell to pay. I can only answer for my own experience, but the Corps fostered a team spirit and not one of confrontation.
I don't know if it was the danger of the times. or the knowledge we had to go to war together. But I can say hand on heart there were very few disciplinary cases in any of the postings.

There was of course the understanding that we would see action together and some violent situations. Places where it would be easy to gain revenge. But I never heard of one instance of that happening.

What we did have was a complete tight unit, with Sappers NCO's and Officers all pulling their weight. In that respect, we may have been very lucky? I don't know... for they where a great bunch of "Sappers"

I had better add this. the training NCOs did a good job, Just as well, for our lives lay in their hands. So when we went into action we were well prepared. The proof of that is: I am quite able to go out and use all types of explosives today..... 63 years on, I remember it all."Army taught"
Swordman
 
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