Is modern discipline failing

Discussion in 'Sappers' started by specialisedwill, May 3, 2007.

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  1. I for one disagree with the new discipline regime within the army as a whole.
    It seems like we have given up on the basics of the discipline system. The young amongst us today have no fear of the system and we cannot practise punishments at a troop level.
    Some of the ASBO 67 punishments are laughable and the SSM these days cannot really issue any punishment without triplicate paperwork.
    What happened to the good old days of a rhino stopper from the troop staffy and subject closed ?
  2. Thats not only happening in the Forces but out in civvy street.

    Kids at school have no respect
  3. My bold.

    But you can practice the new discipline system at Troop Level (assuming of course you are on about AGAI 67?) and in fact one of the fundamental benefits of this system is that at a stroke it empowered our junior commanders.

    The issue therefore is with your unit's application of AGAI 67 or its perceived lack of trust in its NCO's - but not with "the new discipline regime within the army as a whole"
  4. I fcuked up on stag in GW1, nodded off after a 4 hour stag, I was young, stupid and, well, tired. My section commander kindly woke me up with a boot to the head.
    An hour later my troop staffy took me round the back of a land rover and punched me square in the face causing instant swelling and a shiner you could spot from space.

    Did I complain, did I fcuk.
    Did I deserve it. Yes I did.
    Did I fall asleep on stag again. Did I fcuk.

    Instant justice and lesson learnt. The youth of today would probably have had both their careers for that.
  5. most older blokes have experienced that sort of F.D. i know i did as a young bayonet.

    it usually had the desired effect BUT it would not work nowadays (unfortunately)
  6. In my day......a good regimental scrub with many bass brooms and vim done the trick ...those where the days!!!!!!
  7. Only for grotty, smelly fcukers who failed to realise that the other side of the double doors at the end of the billet housed a shower block and not a 1940s gas chamber.
  8. you got off lightly. the Romans would have executed you for falling asleep on stag :)
  9. Discipline hasn’t changed and the application of discipline shouldn’t be a swift punch to the head, this is only the tactic of a bully.

    What’s required is a longer period of basic training where the civilian is removed from the recruit and replaced with a military mindset which knows and respects the discipline system.

    Additionally the Commander at all levels needs to know the meaning of “Moral courage” and apply the correct level of discipline at the correct time, not only keeping the individual in line but also demonstrating to all the others that stepping out of line produces this effect.

    There are however, some areas where we need to step back to reinforce the discipline chain.

    Officers calling enlisted men by their first name, I worked long and hard to gain rank and for god damm sure, a sprog officer has no right to call me by my first name.

    Enlisted men using officers first names, see above “Moral Courage” don’t let it happen. This erodes respect and hence degrades discipline.

    Corporals and Sergeants living upto their responsibilities. Use your rank wisely, manage your men and be good mess members. Lead by example.

    Sappers, should expect to earn respect, not get an automatic right to it. They shouldn’t get red and yellow cards. What they should get is a beret and a badge and pride in being called a sapper, when they have shown they deserve this privilege. And if they step out of line they should expect quick, fair punishment. They should then take this like a man and move on, lesson learned.

    Finally, I suspect that most of you are experienced to know don’t blame the lads, lead by example because the buck stops at the top and if the lads are lacking respect, in the end its our fault for not doing enough to instil this quality.
  10. WFG, agreed to a certain extent, but if you have a gobby tw@t who thinks he knows the system, thinks he knows you cannot shout, insult, threaten, punish, repremand, harass, or (torture) ;-) him then you have an individual who will not respect the rank(you so rightfully deserve) or the individual. A twat in the mouth is sometimes the only language they respect because this is the environment they are brought up in.

    Another little incident in my long but peppered career involved a section commander, myself and a loose battery clamp. I picked a vehicle up from workshops and drove it(after doing a first parade on it) no less than 500m to our vehicle park, dropped the keys in to our troop seargent and went for a brew. 5 minutes later, my section commander comes into the restroom and tell me he wants a word. I go into the empty office with him, he tells me the battery post has burnt out on the vehicle and I've not done a first parade on the vehicle, I say I did, he tw@ts me, I tw@t him back harder. I would have took the punch on the chin(no pun intended) if I had genuinely fcuked up, but I know I checked the vehicle, I believed everything was ok on the vehicle. End result, he respected me more for having the courage to tw@t him back. It's called standing up for yourself.

    I don't think I was bullied, I think it was just the way it was back then. Now we have a fluffy, cuddly society who molly coddle our youth and treat them with kid gloves and then expect them to go out and do a mans job.

    Sometimes a smack in the mouth is exactly what is required in certain situations, especially in a operational environment.

    *Disclaimer* I've been on the p!ss most of the day, so this might not look too good in the morning!

    End Rant.
  11. msr

    msr LE

    Well said - don't lower the bar, lengthen the run up.

  12. FD its the way ahead like what has already been said the agai system doesnt stop sprogs from repeated offences, and a quick walk round the back for the duty haymaker might make them think twice, and stop them being so gobby and useless
  13. chimera

    chimera LE Moderator

    Spot on.
  14. There are ways and means of making the Corps run better but, in all respect to those older and wiser than me, which is most of you, every gobby sprog nowadays has to be treated in a diferent way, smack one, take anothers weekend away, use his arrogance to make him look like a cnut.

    AGAI 67 and the works only cover a few,let then section commanders make the right move.
  15. Engineer Discipline was built on the foundations of our forefathers in the Corps laid.
    'FD' worked.
    The bullying admittedly hid behind the old ways but FD itself worked. If you can differentiate between the two, the FD and the bullying then youre onto a winner.
    I see lads in my Troop who deserve a bit of FD. It'd properly set them straight, really. But no, they get AGAI'd repeatedly and spiral down in the hole it digs them, they get disillusioned, keep then getting in the sh*t, eventually turning them into another admin case for 1 (UK) Civ Div.
    One decent 'talking to' FD stylee would set them on track a whole lot more efficiently than AGAI ever would. AGAI is minor ADMIN action? What's the use of taking an admin cluster and trying to administrate him? Short sharp scares work wonders.

    If I walk round Gib I cant reprimand the Soldiers in Training if I see them doing something wrong. I have to ASK them for their Name, Troop and Sqn and report it up the chain.

    What a complete and utter load of tosh. If a SOLDIER is fkking up, they should be reprimanded there and then. That's why it's all going to pot, they are brought up on Corporals and Sergeants who cannot touch them, when they get to the Corps proper, they still carry this ideal and still believe it as all that can be done is wave bits of paper under their noses.

    We are still the British Army, arent we? Rank structures, Sgt Majors that bark and bite, Corporals that induce fear not fluffiness? Can we go back to acting like it please?