Is integration a 2-way street?

#2
I've actually lived in the Middle East. I've had to adhere to their ways of life-Ramadan is a prime example. It's bloody difficult at times. But unlike a lot of expats, I did not flout their laws and ways of life out of respect to Islam as I was living in their country and was therefore a guest. I did not go around bleating that I was a Christian and that they should respect my beliefs.

As a sign of respect to a Christian country, they should respect our beliefs and not rock the boat when they are in the UK.
 
#3
Its simple. They are the outsiders. they need to integrate with us not the other way round. Integration is a one way street. If they dont like it they are welcome to leave.
 
#4
And what exactly do 'they' mean when they say it's a two way street?

As if we haven't bent over backwards in that last 10 years or so to make sure 'their' ways are even legally protected.

You gives an inch ......

Matelot - 'I did not go around bleating that I was a Christian and that they should respect my beliefs.'

And I suspect if you had you would have been on the sharp end of a very pointed stick!!
 
#5
Doesn't society need to make some sacrifices to help integrate 2cnd and 3rd generation immigrants? Obviously this doesn't mean changing the country, culture or owt but where is all this gonna end if we're completely segregated and scared of each other?
 
#6
Wench3000 said:
Doesn't society need to make some sacrifices to help integrate 2cnd and 3rd generation immigrants? Obviously this doesn't mean changing the country, culture or owt but where is all this gonna end if we're completely segregated and scared of each other?
Could you provide some indication of of what sort of sacrifices you have in mind?
 
#7
*ahem* I was speaking purely as a devils advocate.....
........however, concessions and schemes have been put in place in the past to aid the integration of other newcomers to the UK.
I don't have any ideas off the top of my head as to what form these "sacrifices" would take.

Out of interest, how long did it take for the Jews in the UK to become mainstream? Historically, life hasn't been easy for our Jewish neighbours in the UK, the massacre in York being a case in point.
 
#8
Wench3000 said:
Doesn't society need to make some sacrifices to help integrate 2cnd and 3rd generation immigrants? Obviously this doesn't mean changing the country, culture or owt but where is all this gonna end if we're completely segregated and scared of each other?
What, like:

- housing
- benefits
- right to bring in a "wife" (that you have never met - somewhat abusing the spirit of the rules)
- translations of all official documents into every obscure language in existence
- suppression of indigenous traditions and religious festivals
- promotion of other religious festivals
- financial support from state for same
- suppression of totally innocuous items like figures and pictures of pigs, Union flags etc
- introduction of ludicrous laws attacking our long-estabished right to free speech, in case offence is caused
- state-funded "diversity" industry
- rafts of anti-discrimination legislation

Sacrifices? We have bent over backwards, dropped our trousers and vaselined our arrseholes.

Doesn't mean changing our country or culture? So what is all that above then?
 
#9
Wench3000 said:
Historically, life hasn't been easy for our Jewish neighbours in the UK, the massacre in York being a case in point.
Given that that was in IIRC the 14th century, historic is the word. Historic to the point of total f*cking irrelevance, if I may say so. Especially when you consider the alternate Anglican / Catholic antagonism in the intervening period.
 
#10
Maybe it isn't totally irrelevant, Clownbasher. It could show that any minority groups that come into the country are subjected to a difficult ride before they join the mainstream.
In reference to the list that you made above, how many of these are fact and how many are paranoia inspired rumours?
 
#11
All are fact. I am not one to quote BNP "statistics" or post links to sites of dubious authority or political leaning (check my previous posts if you like).

I do however get mildly irritated if it is suggested that we have not put ourselves out for immigrants in this country, when this is patently bollox.

Like many I am a bit dismayed at the apparent results of the multicultural experiment, and feel a bit like you would if your dinner guest had touched up your teenage daughter, taken a sh1t in your floor and wiped his arrse on your curtains.

As for "difficult rides before they join the mainstream", then friction often accompanies immigration but I don't recall any massacres of late. It also depends on the group in question. Perhaps take a look at the work of Prof Ceri Peach.
 
#12
Fair enough points and I'm not suggesting that you are of dubious political leanings.

If I can just refer back to the Jewish point again. At what point did the Jews stop being massacred in the UK and accepted. I can assume that they were "hated" sufficiently by the general population to facilitate massacres.
 
#13
Well, that incident was a one-off as far as I am aware. There has been much Jewish immigration over the centuries since (e.g. Eastern European Jews in 19th C East End) ironically I think following violence(?) in their homelands of what must now be Poland or the Ukraine. They joined Jews who had been there longer and who had come from other parts of the world.

I believe that the community was pretty well integrated and whilst I'm sure there was friction from time to time and with certain people I'm not sure there was ever a climate of general hatred or widespread violence.
 
#14
Interesting. Would it be possible to make a comparison with the Jewish community of previous centuries and the current situation with the Muslim Pakistani inhabitants of the UK?
 
#15
Well, as I have been implicitly suggesting - no. Absolutely not.

I think they are totally different situations - polar opposites (you will probably find Prof Peach very interesting in this respect).

Firstly, there is the issue of whether Judaism is a religion or an ethnicity or both or neither etc etc.

Generally they are white and not outwardly distinguishable. Even in the era of immigration they were from a not so distant or different country.

They fulfil different roles in society. They are on average better off and better educated than the white English notionally Christian average.

There is a very long history of a Jewish population in the UK and thus o co-existence.

They have no history of organising themselves or of agitation.

They have no history of failing to integrate by reason of language.

Their religion is not antagonistic towards other religions (leaving aside one's thoughts on Zionism and ongoing Middle Eastern conflict).

I believe that most of the problems of the Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities can be traced back to the fact that they often come from rural, poor and uneducated backgrounds and are steeped in a culture (religion and national / local) that is ill-suited to successful adaptation to Western life or co-existence with another culture. The unemployment rate tells its own story.
 
#16
Cheers for those responses Clownbasher, interesting stuff.

I'm now off to enjoy a long weekend, have a good one yourself!
 
#17
Now I am not a great lover nor a great hater of Jews. They are just people who have a different religious belief to me.

Muslims, on the other hand, are members of a religion that is incompatible with the laws and customs of this country. They are significantly different to Jews in that, while a Jew may believe you are not getting into heaven because you are a Christian, he certainly doesnt believe that he will get himself in by killing you.
 
#18
Keyboardwarrior said:
Now I am not a great lover nor a great hater of Jews. They are just people who have a different religious belief to me.

Muslims, on the other hand, are members of a religion that is incompatible with the laws and customs of this country. They are significantly different to Jews in that, while a Jew may believe you are not getting into heaven because you are a Christian, he certainly doesnt believe that he will get himself in by killing you.
And nor, presumably, do the majority of the Muslim population of the UK (or the rest of the world) or they and lots of us would already be dead anyway. What is important is that for all of the initiatives described above, there is still such a lack of positive integration. It has been suggested that lots of the problem stems from the initiatives in the first place.

Economic migrants always tend to auto-ghetto-ise, on the basis of shared linguistic and cultural values, during the first few generations - this can be seen as much for Europeans working in colonial Africa or Asia, or contemporary Middle East as for the Muslim population if Britain. What is different in this case is that the state has explicitly gone about the business of telling the immigrant population that this is a good thing, and doing things to perpetuate the status quo. Multi-cultutralism's central theme is the equal validity of different cultural (and by implication linguistic) values - hence the system has created a multi-tiered society rather than a homogenised one as has happened throughout previous centuries of UK immigration.

There are aspects of Islamic culture which tend towards exacerbating the situation, but not generally more so than has been the case for any previous wave of population movement to the UK. The result is that the 'n+' generations of the migrant comunities are left without an identity - even a religious one (self-radicalisation is relatively rarer amongst those who have an established familial faith, for example). They turn their backs on the rural/agrarian beliefs and practices of their parents which are unsuited to urban/industrialised living; they fail to feel accepted as authentically British, (state education has failed to help as school catchment areas reflect the ethnic propensities of the local area and hance the ethnicity of the specifically immigrant community rather than the wider British community); poor housing tends to be reflected in lower educational acheivement and spiraling communal employment prospects, and poor housing was that which is available to any initial generation of economic migrants.

The state should have stepped back and let the cultural melting pot do its thing, it could have positively gone about homogenising UK society during the last 40 years, but the very worst option would have been to adopt multi-cultural values and perpetuate the divisions in our modern populace. Oh, hang on...
 
#20
clownbasher said:
Well, that incident was a one-off as far as I am aware. There has been much Jewish immigration over the centuries since (e.g. Eastern European Jews in 19th C East End) ironically I think following violence(?) in their homelands of what must now be Poland or the Ukraine. They joined Jews who had been there longer and who had come from other parts of the world.

I believe that the community was pretty well integrated and whilst I'm sure there was friction from time to time and with certain people I'm not sure there was ever a climate of general hatred or widespread violence.
I seem to remember some punch up with Blackshirts in the mid thirties where one or two got murdered, and then there is the recent defiling of jewish cemetaries - perhaps carried out by a vociferous and nausiating minority
 

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