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Irish War of Independence centenary

Interesting quote:

"Despite the staunch opposition of the chief of the imperial general staff, Sir Henry Wilson, who feared the consequences of deploying in Palestine men he privately denounced as ‘a gang of murderers’, the Cabinet approved these proposals on 21 December and formally charged Tudor with raising the force."

The very Chief of the Imperial General Staff, no fan of Irish nationalism, himself did not quite think the Auxies and Tans (let's call them by the name which history has endowed on them) were the square-jawed British heroes and upholders of British law and justice that some posters here would paint them as.
 
Interesting quote:

"Despite the staunch opposition of the chief of the imperial general staff, Sir Henry Wilson, who feared the consequences of deploying in Palestine men he privately denounced as ‘a gang of murderers’, the Cabinet approved these proposals on 21 December and formally charged Tudor with raising the force."

The very Chief of the Imperial General Staff, no fan of Irish nationalism, himself did not quite think the Auxies and Tans (let's call them by the name which history has endowed on them) were the square-jawed British heroes and upholders of British law and justice that some posters here would paint them as.

If you are in London, you can still see Sir Henry Wilson's plaque at Liverpool Street Station.

I stand to be corrected, but one of the few (if not only?) assassinations outside of Ireland approved by Michael Collins?

He was shot dead shortly after unveiling the larger WW1 Memorial at that Station. His two killers were subsequently arrested, convicted of his murdered and executed.

 
If you are in London, you can still see Sir Henry Wilson's plaque at Liverpool Street Station.

I stand to be corrected, but one of the few (if not only?) assassinations outside of Ireland approved by Michael Collins?

He was shot dead shortly after unveiling the larger WW1 Memorial at that Station. His two killers were subsequently arrested, convicted of his murdered and executed.

Wilson, like so many other of the Army hierarchy who came from Ulster (the nearest thing to a Prussian Junker class that ever emerged in Britain, Max Hastings once described them), was of course a bald-faced hypocrite when it came to rebellion and upholding British rule and imposing the smack of firm government on Ireland.

Men like him would call for military might to crush Irish rebels for having the audacity to arm themselves and resist the will of the British parliament and for seeking to ignore the demands of the British government.

Conveniently ignoring the fact that a mere six years prior to this they were leading a mutiny in the ranks of the Army officer corps and threatening to overthrow the democratically elected British government simply because that government wanted to crack down on an armed uprising against the legitimate mandate of the British parliament.

For men like Wilson it was simply a matter of which type of Irish rebel was arming to resist British rule in Ireland that decided whether they would be given an easy ride or have terrible war unleashed on them.
 

JCC

War Hero
Wilson, like so many other of the Army hierarchy who came from Ulster (the nearest thing to a Prussian Junker class that ever emerged in Britain, Max Hastings once described them), was of course a bald-faced hypocrite when it came to rebellion and upholding British rule and imposing the smack of firm government on Ireland.

Men like him would call for military might to crush Irish rebels for having the audacity to arm themselves and resist the will of the British parliament and for seeking to ignore the demands of the British government.

Conveniently ignoring the fact that a mere six years prior to this they were leading a mutiny in the ranks of the Army officer corps and threatening to overthrow the democratically elected British government simply because that government wanted to crack down on an armed uprising against the legitimate mandate of the British parliament.

For men like Wilson it was simply a matter of which type of Irish rebel was arming to resist British rule in Ireland that decided whether they would be given an easy ride or have terrible war unleashed on them.
I haven't got round to the "Curragh Mutiny" yet but wasn't it a matter of threatening to resign rather than overthrowing governments?
 
If you are in London, you can still see Sir Henry Wilson's plaque at Liverpool Street Station.

I stand to be corrected, but one of the few (if not only?) assassinations outside of Ireland approved by Michael Collins?

He was shot dead shortly after unveiling the larger WW1 Memorial at that Station. His two killers were subsequently arrested, convicted of his murdered and executed.

A few images of the era including a letter from the High Commissioner to Winston
 

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I haven't got round to the "Curragh Mutiny" yet but wasn't it a matter of threatening to resign rather than overthrowing governments?
Read The Strange Death of Liberal England by George Dangerfield, it is a rollicking good analysis of an extremely febrile period in British history.

Because of what followed in the Great War we tend to look back on the late Edwardian period as a halcyon age of culture, civilisation and stability, of gentle garden parties and a young golden generation enjoying the last dappled summer of peace combined with solid British good sense and enlightened government.

It was far from that, the sinister machinations and manoeuvring and social unrest and political violence of the period make the second period of Harold Wilson's government in the mid 1970s look like, er, well an Edwardian garden party (I think I might be losing the run of myself with this metaphor but how and ever).

First and foremost among these sinister elements was a very nasty conspiracy by reactionary members of the Tory establishment against what they saw as a radical Liberal government set on undermining everything that they held dear, and they would stop at nothing, not even a coup d'etat, to thwart the will of the government.

In later years everyone wished to brush the unpleasantness of Curragh under the carpet and pretend nothing untoward took place, all just a silly misunderstanding old chap, nothing to get worked up about, and it suited both sides to pretend that is all it was. It wasn't, it was the nearest thing to a potential military overthrow of the British government since Cromwell, and Wilson and his cronies were up to their eyeballs in it.

If the First World War hadn't intervened a civil war was on the cards in Britain.
 

JCC

War Hero
Read The Strange Death of Liberal England by George Dangerfield, it is a rollicking good analysis of an extremely febrile period in British history.

Because of what followed in the Great War we tend to look back on the late Edwardian period as a halcyon age of culture, civilisation and stability, of gentle garden parties and a young golden generation enjoying the last dappled summer of peace combined with solid British good sense and enlightened government.

It was far from that, the sinister machinations and manoeuvring and social unrest and political violence of the period make the second period of Harold Wilson's government in the mid 1970s look like, er, well an Edwardian garden party (I think I might be losing the run of myself with this metaphor but how and ever).

First and foremost among these sinister elements was a very nasty conspiracy by reactionary members of the Tory establishment against what they saw as a radical Liberal government set on undermining everything that they held dear, and they would stop at nothing, not even a coup d'etat, to thwart the will of the government.

In later years everyone wished to brush the unpleasantness of Curragh under the carpet and pretend nothing untoward took place, all just a silly misunderstanding old chap, nothing to get worked up about, and it suited both sides to pretend that is all it was. It wasn't, it was the nearest thing to a potential military overthrow of the British government since Cromwell, and Wilson and his cronies were up to their eyeballs in it.

If the First World War hadn't intervened a civil war was on the cards in Britain.

Thanks for the recommendation but you can whistle Dixie if you think I'm going to shell out £31.65 minus p&p for a secondhand paperback; I shall remain ignorant.

I shall just (continue to) tap my nose and mutter darkly if the subject comes up.
 
Thanks for the recommendation but you can whistle Dixie if you think I'm going to shell out £31.65 minus p&p for a secondhand paperback; I shall remain ignorant.

I shall just (continue to) tap my nose and mutter darkly if the subject comes up.
What? For a second hand book, that's ridiculous. Have you no second hand bookshops in your town? You should be able to pick up a copy there for much cheaper.
 
Gents thanks for the clarification and new links, some fascinating stuff there


In case anyone is unaware the Khaki Tam o Shanter was born from the Balmoral/ Kilmarnock headdress favoured by certain Scottish rgts

Not to be mistaken with that atrocity the caubeen which bears a passing resemblance
 
The overwhelming majority of these recruits were British veterans of the Great War.

Contrary to popular opinion, they were not ‘temporary constables’, but recruited onto the RIC’s permanent, pensionable establishment on the same pay scale as the pre-1920 or ‘old’ RIC. [1]

The ‘Black and Tans’ were new recruits to the RIC in 1920 and 1921. They were not ‘temporary constables’ or a ‘special reserve’.

They were distributed across the country where they were barracked with and served alongside the ‘old RIC’ – they were in no sense a ‘special reserve’. In excess of 8,000 British and 2000 Irish permanent RIC constables were recruited in these two years.
I am not arguing about that. But the official name for Constables recruited mainly from the mainland was the RIC Special Reserve.

Therefore we will have to agree to disagree, to avoid taking the thread off track.
 
7 October 1920

Six RIC men were ambushed in the village of Feakle, Co. Clare resulting in the death of two of them; Sergeant Francis Doherty and Constable William Stanley. This ambush was carried out by men of the 6th Battalion, East Clare Brigade, led by Thomas Tuohy.

Constable Stanley died in the ambush. He was aged 46 and from Co. Cork. Sergeant Doherty was also 46 and from Mohill, Co. Leitrim. He died of wounds some time after the attack. Neither death appears to have been registered.

Seven houses were burnt by the RIC in retaliation including the post office and the priest’s house.


The IRA attacked the RIC barracks in Ardara, Co. Donegal but were beaten off.

TJ Smith, Inspector General, RIC announced a pay rise for the lads. Non-pensionable additions to pay for RIC men "in respect of increased cost of living" were to be paid out.
 
Thanks for the recommendation but you can whistle Dixie if you think I'm going to shell out £31.65 minus p&p for a secondhand paperback; I shall remain ignorant.

I shall just (continue to) tap my nose and mutter darkly if the subject comes up.
If you want a cheap introduction to the Mutiny I recommend Paul O'Brien's A Question of Duty; The Curragh Incident 1914. Yours on Kindle or second hand for less than a fiver. It's a very short book but then it was a very short "mutiny".


 
Curragh incident.

It wasn't technically a Mutiny as British Army officers at the Curragh had resigned or threatened to resign rather than carry out operations against the UVF.
Mr Daly and the Connaught Rangers should have tendered their resignations in India then. I'm sure their officers would have been entirely sympathetic had they cited the precedent set by the officers in the Curragh.
 
Mr Daly and the Connaught Rangers should have tendered their resignations in India then. I'm sure their officers would have been entirely sympathetic had they cited the precedent set by the officers in the Curragh.
Which is a point. I looked back to 20 June and there was no mention of the Connaught Rangers mutiny. Although in India and not Ireland I thought it was a big thing with you lot. The song is up there in the Irish Republican top ten along with 'Come out ye Black and Tans'.
 
8 October 1920

At 9 am a lorry carrying stores was attacked at the corner of Cove Street and Barrack Street in Cork. The attackers threw improvised bombs at the lorry killing one man and wounding two other soldiers along with four civilians. A group of men armed with revolvers then opened fire on the lorry.

The dead man was 5487222 Private John Squibb, 2nd Bn. Hampshire Regiment. Squibb was 18 years old and from the Isle of Wight. He is buried in the Chapelyard of the Baptist Chapel, Niton, Isle of Wight.

An IRA man named Joseph Murphy was court-martialled and sentenced to death for the killing of Squibb but I'm not sure if he was actually executed.

RIC Constable Dennison sustained shot gun wounds during an attempt to steal his revolver, in Dunamore, Co. Tyrone.

A letter from Brigadier General Cockerill MP appeared in the Times suggesting a conference of plenipotentiaries from Britain and Ireland to discuss a settlement, to be preceded by a truce and amnesty with the resulting agreement to be submitted to both parliaments for acceptance or rejection but not amendment.
 
8 October 1920

At 9 am a lorry carrying stores was attacked at the corner of Cove Street and Barrack Street in Cork. The attackers threw improvised bombs at the lorry killing one man and wounding two other soldiers along with four civilians. A group of men armed with revolvers then opened fire on the lorry.

The dead man was 5487222 Private John Squibb, 2nd Bn. Hampshire Regiment. Squibb was 18 years old and from the Isle of Wight. He is buried in the Chapelyard of the Baptist Chapel, Niton, Isle of Wight.

An IRA man named Joseph Murphy was court-martialled and sentenced to death for the killing of Squibb but I'm not sure if he was actually executed.

RIC Constable Dennison sustained shot gun wounds during an attempt to steal his revolver, in Dunamore, Co. Tyrone.

A letter from Brigadier General Cockerill MP appeared in the Times suggesting a conference of plenipotentiaries from Britain and Ireland to discuss a settlement, to be preceded by a truce and amnesty with the resulting agreement to be submitted to both parliaments for acceptance or rejection but not amendment.
Private Squibb, who suffered many wounds, might have tried to throw an IRA bomb out of the lorry; one of his hands was blown off.
 
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8 October 1920

A letter from Brigadier General Cockerill MP appeared in the Times suggesting a conference of plenipotentiaries from Britain and Ireland to discuss a settlement, to be preceded by a truce and amnesty with the resulting agreement to be submitted to both parliaments for acceptance or rejection but not amendment.
First mention of the GFA?
 

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