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Irish War of Independence centenary

3 October 1920

Four RIC men were shot at in Patrick's St. Cork resulting in the death of Constable Clarence Chave and the wounding of two others. Constable Chave was aged 24, from Sheerness in Kent and had three months service in the RIC.
 
Playing devils advocate is it possible he did actually break loose of his escort/ overpower or subdue him/ them
Resulting in his death

I know it’s easy to assume he was given a count to ten then murdered in cold
Blood
Civil wars always bring out the nastier sides armies or in this case armed police
Of course it's possible. However killing prisoners "while trying to escape" became so commonplace the automatic assumption is that it was a lie. Of course the inevitable consequence was that the IRA murdered anyone they captured as well.
 
4 October 1920

Auxiliaries enter a dancehall at Knockroon near Headford, Co. Galway and single out five men who were flogged and beaten with rifle butts. A number of houses in the Headford area were raided the same night including the home of Patrick Cullen, an RIC man who was considering resigning. He also suffered a flogging.

12 men from the 7th Battalion, Cork No. 3 Brigade, led by Battalion O/C Sean Lehane captured Schull RIC Barracks. They had obtained the password from an RIC constable called Daly and were allowed entry into the barracks, netting a haul of 13 rifles and 26 revolvers.
 
5 October 1920

The RIC carried out reprisals in Boyle, Co Roscommon, presumably linked to the attack on Frenchpark Barracks on 2nd.
 
4 October 1920

Auxiliaries enter a dancehall at Knockroon near Headford, Co. Galway and single out five men who were flogged and beaten with rifle butts. A number of houses in the Headford area were raided the same night including the home of Patrick Cullen, an RIC man who was considering resigning. He also suffered a flogging.

12 men from the 7th Battalion, Cork No. 3 Brigade, led by Battalion O/C Sean Lehane captured Schull RIC Barracks. They had obtained the password from an RIC constable called Daly and were allowed entry into the barracks, netting a haul of 13 rifles and 26 revolvers.
The Auxies obviously never got around to reading Dale Carnegies, 'How to win friends and influence people.' :rolleyes:
 
4 October 1920

Auxiliaries enter a dancehall at Knockroon near Headford, Co. Galway and single out five men who were flogged and beaten with rifle butts. A number of houses in the Headford area were raided the same night including the home of Patrick Cullen, an RIC man who was considering resigning. He also suffered a flogging.

12 men from the 7th Battalion, Cork No. 3 Brigade, led by Battalion O/C Sean Lehane captured Schull RIC Barracks. They had obtained the password from an RIC constable called Daly and were allowed entry into the barracks, netting a haul of 13 rifles and 26 revolvers.

The capture of Schull is described in the military archives, page 7 onwards:


A couple of interesting points stand out here, barracks had heavy chains fitted on the insides of doors to prevent the doors being forced (if utilised) and some of the captured weapons would later be used at Kilmichael.
 
You mean the auxies don't you?
There is a lot of confusion over titles as I tried to illustrate before.

I have seen one modern high level org chart of the RIC with the ADRIC under the title Special Reserve but it is Mt understanding they reported directly to Dublin Castle
.
Anyway poor old Constable Chave was a regular constable of the RIC who happened to be recruited in England on rcacrltly the same terms as regular constables recruited in Ireland.

Rank and file members of the Auxiliaries were temporary cadets who held the nominal status of RIC sergeants.

The auxiliaries had an organisation within called the Drivers and veterans who were drivers and servants for the temporary cadets. Their rank was temporary constable.

The bottom rank in the Ulster Special Constabulary was special constable.

The only reference I can find to a reserve was the RIC Depot formally known as the Depot and Reserve.
 
There is a lot of confusion over titles as I tried to illustrate before.

I have seen one modern high level org chart of the RIC with the ADRIC under the title Special Reserve but it is Mt understanding they reported directly to Dublin Castle
.
Anyway poor old Constable Chave was a regular constable of the RIC who happened to be recruited in England on rcacrltly the same terms as regular constables recruited in Ireland.

Rank and file members of the Auxiliaries were temporary cadets who held the nominal status of RIC sergeants.

The auxiliaries had an organisation within called the Drivers and veterans who were drivers and servants for the temporary cadets. Their rank was temporary constable.

The bottom rank in the Ulster Special Constabulary was special constable.

The only reference I can find to a reserve was the RIC Depot formally known as the Depot and Reserve.
The bottomest rung of the USC being the 'C' Specials, Jesus, imagine being even lower than a 'B' Special?
 
There is a lot of confusion over titles as I tried to illustrate before.

I have seen one modern high level org chart of the RIC with the ADRIC under the title Special Reserve but it is Mt understanding they reported directly to Dublin Castle
.
Anyway poor old Constable Chave was a regular constable of the RIC who happened to be recruited in England on rcacrltly the same terms as regular constables recruited in Ireland.

Rank and file members of the Auxiliaries were temporary cadets who held the nominal status of RIC sergeants.

The auxiliaries had an organisation within called the Drivers and veterans who were drivers and servants for the temporary cadets. Their rank was temporary constable.

The bottom rank in the Ulster Special Constabulary was special constable.

The only reference I can find to a reserve was the RIC Depot formally known as the Depot and Reserve.
According to Ernest Mcall's book 'Tudors Toughs. The RIC Special Reserve were short service special constables recruited to help the RIC. Recruitment started in March 1920 from former British servicemen and they were paid 10 shillings a day. Due to a shortage of RIC uniforms they were issue a mixture of RIC Blue and British Army Khaki, hence the locals nicknaming them 'The Black and Tans' after the famous Irish hunting pack.

This mixed dress only lasted a couple of months until they were clothed in full RIC uniform. They reinforced existing RIC stations to make up for the large number of RIC constables who had resigned or been killed. They were always outnumbered by their RIC collegues. Being former trained combat experienced soldiers they were meant to provide back bone to the defence when attacked by the IRA. When farmer Murphy needed to be stuck on for a nail missing from a horse shoe this would be done by the local boys.

They were under the command of regular RIC Sergeants and Inspectors so when it is reported that the 'Black and Tans' went on the rampage, it was a case of regular RIC constables going on the rampage directed by RIC Sergeants and Inspectors with the RICSR constables (Black and Tans) joining in. DM Leesons book the Black and Tans shows that 55% enlisted in London, 19% enlisted in Liverpool and 8% enlisted in Glasgow.

As you have explained in a previous post the Auxilliaries were formed into a number of companies stationed in different areas of the country. Recruited from ex officers they initialy wore khaki with Tam o Shanter and later were issued with blue RIC uniforms with a matching Balmoral bonnet.

I think it more likely that poor old constable Chave was a member of the RICSR.

The Rank structure for the ADRIC was:

Company Commander (1st Class District Inspector)

Second In Command (2nd Class District Inspector)

Platoon Commanders (3rd Class District Inspector)

Section Leaders (Head Constable)

Sergeants and Cadets.

McCalls book has a nominal roll for each company showing were it was stationed and the date it was formed. It also has the military rank and regiment (where known) of each member. The imfamous K company which put Cork to the torch has a Major of the NZEF listed as a Temporary Cadet. It also has two Canadians as well as a number of the RAF. L company also stationed in Cork has two Australians as well as RAF and RNVR.

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6 October 1920

John Clifford, a 17 year old Bottle Washer from Derry, died after being shot by the military.

Cork No. 2 Brigade Flying Column ambushed a lorry carrying British soldiers at Ballydrochane between Kanturk and Newcastle. The driver was reported killed and the rest wounded. No soldier is recorded as dying on this date although a Private Cowin died on the 11th in Kanturk. Possibly a mix up in dates or Cowin was wounded and subsequently died.

Edited to add that this ambush took place on the 11th not the 6th.
 
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I may have mentioned it; but with all the talk of the Aux;

Apparently the Palestine Police tie was "black and tan" given the amount of recruits they took in after people from the RIC went in search of new employment.

Possibly true, possibly a bleak joke.
 
I may have mentioned it; but with all the talk of the Aux;

Apparently the Palestine Police tie was "black and tan" given the amount of recruits they took in after people from the RIC went in search of new employment.

Possibly true, possibly a bleak joke.
No joke about it, the ranks of the Palestine Police were very much filled with ex-RIC, as indeed were many of the other colonial police forces, they would have fitted in well as the RIC was the model on which many Imperial police forces were based.
 
No joke about it, the ranks of the Palestine Police were very much filled with ex-RIC, as indeed were many of the other colonial police forces, they would have fitted in well as the RIC was the model on which many Imperial police forces were based.
Indeed, and Henry Tudor became the Inspector General of the Palestinian Police. Douglas Duff was another famous (or infamous) name from the period. This former merchant seaman joined the Black and Tans after lying about having served in the Rifle Brigade. He went on to Palestine and is believed to be the origin of the term being 'duffed up'. He had, nevertheless an extraordinary career that inclded an appointment with the Admiralty during WW2 as an expert in irregular warfare, as a broadcaster with the BBC (What's my line) and as the author of over 100 books.
 
I think it more likely that poor old constable Chave was a member of the RICSR.
Again, no such organisation existed but it is a term of misinformation that has evolved over the last 100 years
From people who knew at the time and note even then there was 'confusion in the public mind'

ROYAL IRISH CONSTABULARY.​

HC Deb 25 February 1921 vol 138 c1307W1307W
§Mr. NEVILLE CHAMBERLAIN
asked the Chief Secretary for Ireland whether, in view of the confusion in the public mind as to the nature of the various forces responsible for law and order in Ireland, he will circulate for the information of Members a statement showing the method of recruitment, organisation, and relation to other forces of the Black-and-Tans and the Auxiliary Division of the Royal Irish Constabulary, respectively
Sir H. GREENOOD
As I have previously explained, the so-called Black-and-Tans are not a separate force, but are recruits to the permanent establishment of the Royal Irish Constabulary. The Auxiliary Division is also a part of the Royal Irish Constabulary, but consists altogether of ex-officers of the Army, Navy, or Air Force who have been recruited for temporary service only.
"

The overwhelming majority of these recruits were British veterans of the Great War.

Contrary to popular opinion, they were not ‘temporary constables’, but recruited onto the RIC’s permanent, pensionable establishment on the same pay scale as the pre-1920 or ‘old’ RIC. [1]

The ‘Black and Tans’ were new recruits to the RIC in 1920 and 1921. They were not ‘temporary constables’ or a ‘special reserve’.

They were distributed across the country where they were barracked with and served alongside the ‘old RIC’ – they were in no sense a ‘special reserve’. In excess of 8,000 British and 2000 Irish permanent RIC constables were recruited in these two years.

 
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Indeed, and Henry Tudor became the Inspector General of the Palestinian Police. Douglas Duff was another famous (or infamous) name from the period. This former merchant seaman joined the Black and Tans after lying about having served in the Rifle Brigade. He went on to Palestine and is believed to be the origin of the term being 'duffed up'. He had, nevertheless an extraordinary career that inclded an appointment with the Admiralty during WW2 as an expert in irregular warfare, as a broadcaster with the BBC (What's my line) and as the author of over 100 books.
Without knocking the thread any further of course a good account here:
 
@twentyfirstoffoot

I am so very grateful for that!

Before the plague hit us I was planning on a trip to the Palestine Police holdings at one or other of the Oxford colleges. Long been facsinated by the links that wove through colonial policing; a senior officer of the Arab Legaue learnt his Arabic with the Palestine Police and wrote their Arabic language stuff.

Bit like how post-war officers turned up all over the place spreading informally the lessons of counter-insugency from place to place, as we re-learned lessons over and over again.

Or did we learn lessons from the RIC?!

I have a friend doing a PhD on the Int Corps and inter-war development of British Military Intelligence, and it has become a very well worn joke that they insist the Anglo-Irish was is out of scope to his period; to which I can usually be heard spitting tea and throwing my toys out the cot (I wrote on the period myself!)

it's like watching two nerds in tweed fight (or we could if our joints still worked enough).
 

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