Irish War of Independence centenary

Quite. It works both ways, it seems there were U-boat officers bimbling about in uniform ( and Allied soldiers in civvies) openly visiting the pubs and stocking up on fresh provisions, which is something I didn't know. It seems it was a legitimate use of the facilities of a neutral country, like the RAF and Third Reich both buying Swedish ball bearings.



We haven't got to the Civil War yet, it's a couple of years away.

There are plenty of Republican toxic myths. From the accounts, the Bureau of Military History archives and similar, and the songs you'd think it was all flying columns and heroic ambushes. There's not many accounts of shooting PC O'Plod in the back of the head as he pedalled past on his bicycle, or of murderers using the disorder as an excuse to settle old scores.
Those Germans in uniform were essentially trustees - allowed out from their place of light incarceration on gentlemanly agreements
 
Those Germans in uniform were essentially trustees - allowed out from their place of light incarceration on gentlemanly agreements
According to Robert Fisk's article (see post #1241) they were active, serving officers, rather than internees and U-boats were regularly stopping in remote coastal areas of the Republic for R&R. I think any warship could have legally stopped for 3 days in a neutral port and should have then been interned, as with Graf Spee.

I think all the interneees were kept in the Curragh Camp, and were on parole to return every night, so unless they were somewhere near the Curragh, they probably weren't internees.

There was a letter in The Telegraph 25+ years ago, from a resident of some remote Welsh seaside village. He and his wife had met the German owner of a bar whilst on holiday in Germany. The German knew the Welsh village, mentioned several of the landmarks and said he'd been there during WW2. They assumed he'd been a POW, but he said he'd been in U-boats and they'd gone ashore several times to go to the pub. They'd been taken for some foreign allied seamen and hadn't been challenged.

Quite likely they'd met a German fibber, but we'll never know.

 
According to Robert Fisk's article (see post #1241) they were active, serving officers, rather than internees and U-boats were regularly stopping in remote coastal areas of the Republic for R&R. I think any warship could have legally stopped for 3 days in a neutral port and should have then been interned, as with Graf Spee.

I think all the interneees were kept in the Curragh Camp, and were on parole to return every night, so unless they were somewhere near the Curragh, they probably weren't internees.

There was a letter in The Telegraph 25+ years ago, from a resident of some remote Welsh seaside village. He and his wife had met the German owner of a bar whilst on holiday in Germany. The German knew the Welsh village, mentioned several of the landmarks and said he'd been there during WW2. They assumed he'd been a POW, but he said he'd been in U-boats and they'd gone ashore several times to go to the pub. They'd been taken for some foreign allied seamen and hadn't been challenged.

Quite likely they'd met a German fibber, but we'll never know.
Maybe both.
Had your second para in mind
 
According to Robert Fisk's article (see post #1241) they were active, serving officers, rather than internees and U-boats were regularly stopping in remote coastal areas of the Republic for R&R. I think any warship could have legally stopped for 3 days in a neutral port and should have then been interned, as with Graf Spee.

I think all the interneees were kept in the Curragh Camp, and were on parole to return every night, so unless they were somewhere near the Curragh, they probably weren't internees.

There was a letter in The Telegraph 25+ years ago, from a resident of some remote Welsh seaside village. He and his wife had met the German owner of a bar whilst on holiday in Germany. The German knew the Welsh village, mentioned several of the landmarks and said he'd been there during WW2. They assumed he'd been a POW, but he said he'd been in U-boats and they'd gone ashore several times to go to the pub. They'd been taken for some foreign allied seamen and hadn't been challenged.

Quite likely they'd met a German fibber, but we'll never know.

Maybe both.
Had your second para in mind
Regarding the second paragraph. Theres a funny story about an American,Bud Wolfe who was flying in one of the RAF Eagle Sqns early in the war. His Spitfire crashed in Donegal,(It was salvaged a number of years ago, Dan Snow did a programme about it, and got one of its machine guns firing again) Any hoo. Bud was sent of to the Curragh for internment, and fell into the routine, where they were given weekend passes and an allowance to go out to local towns on their own parole. Bud having come over to fight the Hun, uses this parole to return to NI. On reporting to the senior officer in Belfast, feeling pretty good about making His 'escape' The Senior officer asks if He'd given His word as an officer that He wouldn't attempt to escape while on parole. Bud says Yes, but theres a war on ,and He'd come to fight it. The Senior Officer calls Him a bally disgrace, and sends Him back. Where he promptly gets filled in by some of His fellow internees ,as the parole system was suspended after His legging it. The poor lad came to Britain to fight fascism, and instead found Himself in something akin to an Ealing Comedy. IIRC He was released a few months later. Went on to fly for the USAAF, And then the USAF in Korea and early in the Vietnam war.
 
19 March 1920

RIC Constable Joseph Murtagh of Sunday’s Well Station Cork was shot dead in the street at about 11pm. He was a native of Co. Westmeath, a widower with two children, and had served in the RIC for 23 years. Murtagh had left the barracks where he lived, in civilian clothes, and was apparently off duty at the time of the attack. He is interred in the New Cemetery in Lismore, Co. Waterford.

According to the witness statement of Patrick Murray, commanding C Coy, 1st Bn, Cork No. 1 Bde, Murtagh was a detective and he was shot by Christy MacSwiney and a Volunteer O’Connell. He was targeted because he was involved in interrogating Martin Condon, an IRA prisoner in the military barracks in Cork at the time.
Totally, toootttallllyy, off topic, but is it true that the interestingly named Sunday's Well is in fact a mistranslation? It comes from the Irish, where Sunday is "the Lord's Day" and actually it should be called Lord's Well?
 
20 March 1920

Tomás MacCurtain, recently elected Lord Mayor of Cork and CO of Cork No. 1 Brigade, IRA was shot dead at his home on Thomas Davis Street at about 1:15 a.m. The assassination was carried out by a group of RIC men and caused outrage throughout much of the country.

The inquest into the killing was held in the City Hall on 17 April. The coroner’s jury heard testimony from 97 witnesses, of whom 64 were policemen, 31 were civilians, and 2 were soldiers. The unanimous verdict was that the murder was organised and carried out by the Royal Irish Constabulary. The jury returned a verdict of wilful murder against Prime Minister David Lloyd George, the Viceroy Lord French, former Irish Chief Secretary Ian Macpherson, Acting RIC Inspector-General T. J. Smith, RIC Divisional Commissioner Edward Myles Clayton, RIC District Inspector Oswald Ross Swanzy, and ‘some unknown members of the R.I.C.

Swanzy was viewed by the IRA as the chief culprit. Shortly after the assassination he was transferred to Lisburn, Co. Armagh, where he was in turn murdered by Cork Volunteers on 22 August 1920.
There is an interesting discussion of Swanzy and his role in MacCurtain's murder here:

District Inspector Oswald Ross Swanzy


It appears that the murder of MacCurtain was in direct retaliation for the murder of Constable Murtagh earlier. In light of this it is interesting that many in Sinn Fein were unhappy with MacCurtain because he was seen as too sympathetic to the RIC and condemned the murders of policemen.


"Tomas MacCurtain was not in favour of murdering policemen and was considered a moderate by members of the local RIC as outlined in Feely's statement. He spent time late on the evening of 19 March, hours before his murder, on the telephone to the hospital checking on a Constable Murtagh who had been shot at Pope’s Quay earlier that evening. Later that night following Constable Murtagh’s death, MacCurtain contacted the constable’s family to offer his condolences. During the inquest the police at Blackpool expressed their admiration for the lord mayor and his wife with whom they engaged on a regular basis. One policemen, Sgt Normoyle, stationed at Blackpool, said that the lady mayoress had assisted him on what he termed an unpleasant duty the previous December and sympathised with him on a personal matter which had befallen him recently. She had cause on a previous occasion to visit a woman in police protection, bringing her a meal. At that time she extended the utmost courtesy to the lady and members of the force as befitting a lady of her stature which was reciprocated by Normoyle and other policemen."
 

NI-EX-MEDIC

War Hero
Just saying
The irish army are on the border now, so much for no hard border and an all Island approach and all the rest of the shite soundbites that have been pedeled out by every asshole that thinks he is a direct decendant of MC or PP or the like. The south cant afford us and dont want us but they are playing a game with SF
 
Totally, toootttallllyy, off topic, but is it true that the interestingly named Sunday's Well is in fact a mistranslation? It comes from the Irish, where Sunday is "the Lord's Day" and actually it should be called Lord's Well?
Irish placename meanings can be a minefield. They're usually just an English pronunciation of what the original Irish might have been. Frequently this is also punched and mangled back into a modern Irish version which is meaningless. When there has been an attempt at a direct translation it's usually wrong.

Near where I live there is a place called Red City which is of course mostly farmland and was never the site of a city of any colour. It was however the site of a prehistoric stone fort which was built of sandstone. One of the words used for such a structure was cathair which is the modern Irish for city. So the Red Stone Fort became Red City.

Similarly Sunday's Well. According to logainm.ie , domhnach means church (which I didn't know). So Sunday is Dé Domhnaigh - Church Day and Tobar Rí an Domhnaigh is the Well by the Church or the Church well.

Tobar Rí an Domhnaigh A/Sundays Well A
 
......It appears that the murder of MacCurtain was in direct retaliation for the murder of Constable Murtagh earlier.....
Possibly or perhaps it was the culmination of a bad period. Four RIC men had been shot with two killed in and around Cork City in the previous couple of weeks.
 

NI-EX-MEDIC

War Hero
20 March 1920

Tomás MacCurtain, recently elected Lord Mayor of Cork and CO of Cork No. 1 Brigade, IRA was shot dead at his home on Thomas Davis Street at about 1:15 a.m. The assassination was carried out by a group of RIC men and caused outrage throughout much of the country.

The inquest into the killing was held in the City Hall on 17 April. The coroner’s jury heard testimony from 97 witnesses, of whom 64 were policemen, 31 were civilians, and 2 were soldiers. The unanimous verdict was that the murder was organised and carried out by the Royal Irish Constabulary. The jury returned a verdict of wilful murder against Prime Minister David Lloyd George, the Viceroy Lord French, former Irish Chief Secretary Ian Macpherson, Acting RIC Inspector-General T. J. Smith, RIC Divisional Commissioner Edward Myles Clayton, RIC District Inspector Oswald Ross Swanzy, and ‘some unknown members of the R.I.C.

Swanzy was viewed by the IRA as the chief culprit. Shortly after the assassination he was transferred to Lisburn, Co. Armagh, where he was in turn murdered by Cork Volunteers on 22 August 1920.
Lisburn must have been on a very active tectonic plate and has moved even more than the land on either side of the San Andreas fault, I am surprised we have had not had more earthquakes here.
 
Lisburn must have been on a very active tectonic plate and has moved even more than the land on either side of the San Andreas fault, I am surprised we have had not had more earthquakes here.
There is an informative article here: Swanzy's murder lead to anti catholic rioting in Lisburn and Banbridge with 22 deaths and most of the catholic pop[ulation burned out and forced to flee to Belfast, Ironically this also lead to the formal establishment of the B Specials.

 

NI-EX-MEDIC

War Hero
I think my point was that Lisburn has never been in Co Armagh as far as I am aware.
Perhaps not, but the majority Prod population at that time were of Belgian descent :)
 
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Its a good story but 30 Commando RM weren't formed until 1942. Also there appears to be no evidence in his wiki entry that Prince Phillip ever served in NI during the war. After Dartmouth he seems to spend most of his time in the Med and Far East.

30 Commando
Fisk is gullible, as many members of the PLO and Hezbollah can testify.
 
I think you will find the Hugenots were from France and the majority of "prods" were of Scottish decent.
Huguenots originated in France and due to persecution settled in what we now call Luxembourg, Belgium and Holland as well as many other countries.. They had in the main been out of France for 100 years before reaching Ireland.

Hugeunot regiments, three infantry and one cavalry delivered significantly to the success of William of Orange at the Boyne and elsewhere. He brought these regiments with him from Holland, to England and then on to Ireland. Perhaps the song should really be "De sah die mijn vader droeg"

Ulster Protestants descend from a variety of lineages, including Lowland Scots (some of whose descendants consider themselves Ulster Scots), English, Irish and Huguenots

An easy rule of thumb being Presbyterian - Scots descent, Church of Ireland - English descent
 

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