Irish War of Independence centenary

When HMS Mashona sunk of Galway in 1941 returning from the Bismarck chase, the Irish government refused to allow lifesaving. It wanted British sailors to die.

'It' may have wanted to, but almost to a man the Irish seamen ignored them.
Neutral Irish Masters made a point of answering SOS's and stopping to rescue any men in boats they came across..
 
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I can't help thinking this was the first round of the Irish Civil War. The Home Rule bill had passed in 1914, but it was important that certain parties were seen to be the 'victors over the British', to cement their place in control of the independent country.
 
Fenian Filth... strange you lot gravitate over here as your qon backward "nation" has nothing to offer other than corruption and violence...
Can both of you stop crayoning on an interesting thread?
Some British forces in Ireland committed war crimes, which were both counter productive and brutal. We need to confront it to learn from it.
Some American forces have committed just as nasty war crimes in their own conflicts, and crowing over British soldiers murdered in a terrorist attack is a bit of a knobber move.
 
True, but that's the downside of it.
The cost of arming Ireland would be borne by whom? The locals couldn't afford it. We had problems enough looking after ourselves nevermind them.
You're not reading what I posted. The costs were minimal - the ports and airports were up and running. It was just a matter of permission being granted.
 
You're not reading what I posted. The costs were minimal - the ports and airports were up and running. It was just a matter of permission being granted.
Not as clear cut, for starters where the manpower coming from ?
If it's the UK, then certainly in the early part of the war that would have dispersed our forces. You are Dublin the land mass to defend and the coastline to protect. You cannot stick bases that are in range of German forces without providing them with means of defence from Luftwaffe etc. That's more AAA , more fighter planes more log chain to support etc. This all have to be manufactured and fuel and munitions provided. The acreage might be free, the machinery aint. Once the yanks get involved, it's more feasible, but until then we were stretched enough.
 
Not as clear cut, for starters where the manpower coming from ?
If it's the UK, then certainly in the early part of the war that would have dispersed our forces. You are Dublin the land mass to defend and the coastline to protect. You cannot stick bases that are in range of German forces without providing them with means of defence from Luftwaffe etc. That's more AAA , more fighter planes more log chain to support etc. This all have to be manufactured and fuel and munitions provided. The acreage might be free, the machinery aint. Once the yanks get involved, it's more feasible, but until then we were stretched enough.

Uh, no.

To make up for the loss of facilities, the British had to create ad hoc facilities in Northern Ireland and route ships via Iceland.
As regards manning them?
The actually surrounding defences were always in the hands of the FS army, the army the British sent 20,000 rifles and 225 BREN carriers to in the Summer of 1940. The actual facilities required quite small garrisons.
The RAF had already positioned enough fighters in Non Ireland to cover the RoI and had a working arrangement with the Irish Defence Forces on forward basing them if the need arose.
 
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Uh, no.

To make up for the loss of facilities, the British had to create ad hoc facilities in Northern Ireland and route ships via Iceland.
As regards manning them?
The actually surrounding defences were always in the hands of the FS army, the army the British sent 20,000 rifles and 225 BREN carriers to in the Summer of 1940. The actual facilities required quite small garrisons.
Yep, immune to Luftwaffe attack a la phoenix park no doubt.
No base existed in the RoI that was out of range from the Luftwaffe.
To defend them you'd need to extend chain home coverage and supply fighter aircraft, crews, AAA and all the support facilities required - all of which would detracted from home defence.
If you're intent in supplying them with gear to resist invasion you can add tanks, trucks, AT weapons etc all of which were in short supply for us post Dunkirk.
 
Yep, immune to Luftwaffe attack a la phoenix park no doubt.
No base existed in the RoI that was out of range from the Luftwaffe.
To defend them you'd need to extend chain home coverage and supply fighter aircraft, crews, AAA and all the support facilities required - all of which would detracted from home defence.
If you're intent in supplying them with gear to resist invasion you can add tanks, trucks, AT weapons etc all of which were in short supply for us post Dunkirk.

How do the Germans land tanks in Ireland?

The only thing they needed to defend against was a coup de main attack by paratroops.

One resumes the RAF fighter bases in Cornwall, Wales and Northern Ireland sit idly by when told a hundred heavily laden JU-52's are headed to Kinsale?

IN the event of German aggression, it had been agreed by the RoI that 3 squadrons of Hurricanes and 2 Squadrons of Battles were to move to airfields in the Republic
 
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Not as clear cut, for starters where the manpower coming from ?
If it's the UK, then certainly in the early part of the war that would have dispersed our forces. You are Dublin the land mass to defend and the coastline to protect. You cannot stick bases that are in range of German forces without providing them with means of defence from Luftwaffe etc. That's more AAA , more fighter planes more log chain to support etc. This all have to be manufactured and fuel and munitions provided. The acreage might be free, the machinery aint. Once the yanks get involved, it's more feasible, but until then we were stretched enough.
Go back and look up Churchill requesting many times assistance from deVelera regards ports. There was an allocation of manpower in place. Once permission given the burden of resources could have been shared between the UK and US.
 

RP578

LE
Book Reviewer
How politically feasible would it have been for De Valera to take the Free State into the War on the side of the British? Given the Blue Shirt movement under Duffy (and perhaps more widely within Fine Gael afterwards?) actively voicing support for the fascist regimes in Europe in the early 1930s, including sending volunteers for Franco. I believe Duffy even offered Hitler a Brigade of Irish Volunteers in his 'crusade against godless Bolshevism'.
 
Go back and look up Churchill requesting many times assistance from deVelera regards ports. There was an allocation of manpower in place. Once permission given the burden of resources could have been shared between the UK and US.
Churchill certainly did request, but until the start of 1942, the US would not have been present in the ETO as they didn't declare war until December 41. As I pointed out, until the yanks turn up, the RoI would have been very much our burden and since Dunkirk, we weren't that full of resource.
In fact, the only fully equipped division in UK after Dunkirk was 1 Canadian Div.
 
How politically feasible would it have been for De Valera to take the Free State into the War on the side of the British? Given the Blue Shirt movement under Duffy (and perhaps more widely within Fine Gael afterwards?) actively voicing support for the fascist regimes in Europe in the early 1930s, including sending volunteers for Franco. I believe Duffy even offered Hitler a Brigade of Irish Volunteers in his 'crusade against godless Bolshevism'.

DeValera want to stay in power, and would stop at nothing to do so, even ask the British back in.

It had been agreed at the highest levels, the British would not move south with its pre positioned forces until 'invited' to by Dublin.

This saved Devs face, he could portray himself as telling the British what they could do. Its worth noting full coperation with the RoI population was expected bar a few die hards.


And again…

The best the Germans planned for was to land 6,000 paratroops in Wexford and strike out at Dublin.
They would have had NO naval support, they were on their own according to the German plan.
Think of it like a large Commando raid. If it sucecceded, exploit, if it failed, shurgs
 
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How do the Germans land tanks in Ireland?

The only thing they needed to defend against was a coup de main attack by paratroops.

One resumes the RAF fighter bases in Cornwall, Wales and Northern Ireland sit idly by when told a hundred heavily laden JU-52's are headed to Kinsale?

IN the event of German aggression, it had been agreed by the RoI that 3 squadrons of Hurricanes and 2 Squadrons of Battles were to move to airfields in the Republic
Really ?
Fairey battles - ye G-ds. 3 squadrons of Hurricanes. Probably mk1s with their 700km range at best.

To defend Sligo, Cork, Lough Swilly
84000 sq km of landmass, 1500km of coastline.
Sligo and Cork within easy reach of Luftwaffe, no initial radar coverage of West coast UK because they all faced Europe.

Thank fek Dev turned Churchill down, bluntly. Prior to the yanks, it would have been a burden. The best that could have happened is for them to have garrisoned RoI, and armed and equipped the Defence forces. We were hardly covering ourselves with glory in the far East or Africa at the time and both required piling blokes and kit into.
 

seaweed

LE
Book Reviewer
Bit harsh, given that she's lying about 65nm W of the Aran Islands (52º58'N, 11º36'W) and, as her and HMS Tartar were still subject to air attack it would have been next to impossible for a ship from a neutral country to:

a. Reach the area to make any difference.

b. Be seen to be anything other than 'neutral'.
I was referring to the refusal of the Irish Government to allow lifesaving after the attack was over and after the ship had sunk. You are, for reasons I can only imagine, trying to distort the facts to defend the indefensible.
 
I was referring to the refusal of the Irish Government to allow lifesaving after the attack was over and after the ship had sunk. You are, for reasons I can only imagine, trying to distort the facts to defend the indefensible.
Curiously, chap, the only online reference to the RoI denying life saving during this event is one mention.

Yours.

Admittedly, my search has been cursory at best: what I have turned up is that, after the initial air attack when Mashona was struck by a bomb that exploded in the No1 boiler, the ship listed to port and began taking on water.

There was then a lull of about an hour when the ship's crew jettisoned most of everything that wasn't nailed down in a vain attempt to try and save her. When it was realised that the ship was lost, HMS Tartar came in and stood close to recover the surviving crew. In all, 45 were lost-a good number of that during the initial bomb explosion.

If you have a reference to support what you claim, I would be truly interested to see it.

What I do know is that those bodies recovered from the sea, most were interred in RoI. I also found this piece which is of interest:

" . . . recovered the body of PO J J Tweed from the sea whilst on passage in his sailing boat from Clare Island to Roonagh Point on the mainland. He took the body back to Clare island for burial. The priest at the time refused to have it interred within consecrated ground much to my fathers disapproval. The result was that it was interred outside the cemetery wall. The situation was redressed in 2002 by Father Ned Crosby and the island people. The cemetery wall was diverted to incorporate PO J J Tweed's grave and he now rests in the company of his fellow seaman- my father-within the cemetery proper."
 
How do the Germans land tanks in Ireland?

The only thing they needed to defend against was a coup de main attack by paratroops.

One resumes the RAF fighter bases in Cornwall, Wales and Northern Ireland sit idly by when told a hundred heavily laden JU-52's are headed to Kinsale?

IN the event of German aggression, it had been agreed by the RoI that 3 squadrons of Hurricanes and 2 Squadrons of Battles were to move to airfields in the Republic
That's like threatening Putin with WIMIK.
 
Really ?
Fairey battles - ye G-ds. 3 squadrons of Hurricanes. Probably mk1s with their 700km range at best.

To defend Sligo, Cork, Lough Swilly
84000 sq km of landmass, 1500km of coastline.
Sligo and Cork within easy reach of Luftwaffe, no initial radar coverage of West coast UK because they all faced Europe.

Thank fek Dev turned Churchill down, bluntly. Prior to the yanks, it would have been a burden. The best that could have happened is for them to have garrisoned RoI, and armed and equipped the Defence forces. We were hardly covering ourselves with glory in the far East or Africa at the time and both required piling blokes and kit into.
In fairness east Africa and North Africa were doing okay after the combined thrusts by the Springboks All Blacks & Wallabies
 
I would hold up the actions of the Dublin fire brigade when the Belfast blitz was on.
A very fine bunch of gentlemen who should get more recognition than they did.
 
Really ?
Fairey battles - ye G-ds. 3 squadrons of Hurricanes. Probably mk1s with their 700km range at best.

To defend Sligo, Cork, Lough Swilly
84000 sq km of landmass, 1500km of coastline.
Sligo and Cork within easy reach of Luftwaffe, no initial radar coverage of West coast UK because they all faced Europe.

Thank fek Dev turned Churchill down, bluntly. Prior to the yanks, it would have been a burden. The best that could have happened is for them to have garrisoned RoI, and armed and equipped the Defence forces. We were hardly covering ourselves with glory in the far East or Africa at the time and both required piling blokes and kit into.

If you are Herman the Fally surrounded on a hill in Wicklow with just light weapons, no artillery, getting bombed by those Battles while the Hurricanes shoot down any Tante Ju's trying to supply you, it may as well be the Death Star hovering over Wicklow

And this Fighters are forward based in the Republic.
You still have the Spitfires in the North, in Wales and the West Country
 
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