Irish War of Independence centenary

18 February 1920

The Irish Times reported that Llyod George’s Better Government of Ireland Bill “has not a single friend in either hemisphere, outside Downing Street”.

Back in November we met Henry Quinlisk working as an intelligence agent for the British military.

https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/irish-war-of-independence-centenary.290046/page-31#post-9666838

Henry had moved to Cork, using the name Quinn, where his efforts to ingratiate himself with the local IRA in the hope of setting up Collins for capture quickly aroused their suspicions. On the night of the 18th February he was lured out to the countryside near Cork city by three IRA men who said they would pay him to assemble a Hotchkiss machine gun for them. At a place called Tory Top Lane they stopped and shot Quinlisk as a spy. The execution party consisted of Michael Murphy (O/C, 2nd Battalion), Frank Mahony (the Battalion Intelligence Officer) and Jimmy Walsh (a Captain in the same battalion).

Quinlisk is identified as Timothy in this account and as John by his father who later came to claim his body. Also some confusion as to the date of death although it seems the official date is 18 February.
http://theirishrevolution.ie/1920-3/#.Xkwy1Sj7SM8

Murphy’s account of the killing beginning Page 12;

http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/bureau-of-military-history-1913-1921/reels/bmh/BMH.WS1547.pdf#page=17

As a matter of interest the witness statement of Maurice Meade giving an account of his time as a member of Casement’s Brigade.

http://www.militaryarchives.ie/collections/online-collections/bureau-of-military-history-1913-1921/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0891.pdf#page=14
 
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A number of old military maps of Ireland available online from a royal collection - older than the period covered in the thread, but historically informative e.g., battle of Aughrim,
mIlitarymaps.rct.uk/search/Ireland/page/1
 

overopensights

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Side hat I think a bit like this chap

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This is Cpl Frank Richards 2nd Bn The Royal Welsh Fusiliers WW1. He wears the side hat in India in 1907. He went on to survive the whole of WW1 and afterwards wrote the fine readable book 'Old Soldiers never die' concerning his service in one of the finest regiments ever to grace the British military. Side hats were private purchase items.
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Frank Richards.jpg
 
This is Cpl Frank Richards 2nd Bn The Royal Welsh Fusiliers WW1. He wears the side hat in India in 1907. He went on to survive the whole of WW1 and afterwards wrote the fine readable book 'Old Soldiers never die' concerning his service in one of the finest regiments ever to grace the British military. Side hats were private purchase items.
View attachment 450810View attachment 450812
Richards was awarded a DCM and MM during WWI but refused any promotion and remained a private. As to his books, Gordon Corrigan has written that he thinks that they were actually written by Robert Graves. Wikipedia states that Graves helped with grammar. Wikipedia also states that Richards was interviewed for The Great War television series in 1954. The series was actually made in 1963/4 and Richards died in 1961, so you pays your money and takes your choice.
 
Richards was awarded a DCM and MM during WWI but refused any promotion and remained a private. As to his books, Gordon Corrigan has written that he thinks that they were actually written by Robert Graves. Wikipedia states that Graves helped with grammar. Wikipedia also states that Richards was interviewed for The Great War television series in 1954. The series was actually made in 1963/4 and Richards died in 1961, so you pays your money and takes your choice.
The books are well worth a read though. 2nd RWF must have been the most literary battalion in the British Army with Robert Graves, Siegfried Sassoon, Frank Richards and their MO, Captain J.C. Dunn, all writing away busily.
 

overopensights

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The books are well worth a read though. 2nd RWF must have been the most literary battalion in the British Army with Robert Graves, Siegfried Sassoon, Frank Richards and their MO, Captain J.C. Dunn, all writing away busily.
In another Bn David Jones also wrote some good stuff. look up 'In parenthesis' a lovely read!
 

overopensights

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Richards was awarded a DCM and MM during WWI but refused any promotion and remained a private. As to his books, Gordon Corrigan has written that he thinks that they were actually written by Robert Graves. Wikipedia states that Graves helped with grammar. Wikipedia also states that Richards was interviewed for The Great War television series in 1954. The series was actually made in 1963/4 and Richards died in 1961, so you pays your money and takes your choice.
I like the expression used by the Commanding officer of the 2nd Royal Welsh. He overheard some of his officers mentioning 'No Man's Land' He shouted at them 'What do you mean! No Man's Land! It's our right up to his bloody wire, and so are his trenches when we can hit him out of them"
 
It always used to amaze us on Banner to hear that thousands of Protestants lived happily and untouched in the South, furthermore the girls coming over the border in Enniskillen on weekends chatted happily with us.
Not as many thousands as there once were though.
 

overopensights

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Why the depletion? is it that people are shying away from religion?
Mostly they just left, economic migrants. Both my paternal Grandparents came from separate areas in the South and met in Belfast. My Dad took me past his Dads family farm once. There are a couple of versions of exacly how and why he had to leave floating about in the family but one thing is for sure, it's not our farm any more.
 
This is Cpl Frank Richards 2nd Bn The Royal Welsh Fusiliers WW1. He wears the side hat in India in 1907. He went on to survive the whole of WW1 and afterwards wrote the fine readable book 'Old Soldiers never die' concerning his service in one of the finest regiments ever to grace the British military. Side hats were private purchase items.
View attachment 450810View attachment 450812
He also wrote 'Old Soldier Sahib' about his time in the army in India and Burma with 2 RWF before the war.

Some of his descriptions about the way they treated the natives in India are akin to the Nazis in WW2. Totatly different attitude in Mandalay, Burma though.

It it seems as though a lot of their attitude was due to the Indian Mutiny being quite recent memory. Less than 40 years from when he first got there. A bit like us looking back on the early days of Op Banner.

Apparently some of the Irish Regiments were quick to use boots and fists on the Indians. Especially the Connaught Rangers.
 
It always used to amaze us on Banner to hear that thousands of Protestants lived happily and untouched in the South, furthermore the girls coming over the border in Enniskillen on weekends chatted happily with us.
The Protestants of the 26 counties were reduced from 10% to 3% between 1911 and 1926. There were still quite sizeable Protestants in the 3 of the old counties of Ulster, especially Donegal. Apparently they have no problem with their Orange order marches, flying the Union Jack (butchers apron for all the T.A.L. boys) and playing the sash. All their catholic neighbours clap and cheer them on. Its treated as a good day out.

It makes me think that a lot of the problems of Ulster are caused by peaple on both sides with vested interests stirring things up. Still they can always go for the default option - blame the English.
 

overopensights

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The Protestants of the 26 counties were reduced from 10% to 3% between 1911 and 1926. There were still quite sizeable Protestants in the 3 of the old counties of Ulster, especially Donegal. Apparently they have no problem with their Orange order marches, flying the Union Jack (butchers apron for all the T.A.L. boys) and playing the sash. All their catholic neighbours clap and cheer them on. Its treated as a good day out.

It makes me think that a lot of the problems of Ulster are caused by peaple on both sides with vested interests stirring things up. Still they can always go for the default option - blame the English.
I remember a Protestant fellow in Armagh, a real good sort, he was ostracised for playing the road bowls with the local Catholic lads.
 
After the 1918 General Election, Sinn Fein was the elected government in the south of Ireland (or all of Ireland in SF's version). By that reckoning, the IRA was then the Irish state's forces, the RIC and Army were using unlawful force to oppose the wishes of the elected government.
They wern't recognised by any other country in the world though and had in effect declared UDI like Ian Smith in Rhodesia. If the IRA were then the Irish state's forces why didn't they wear uniform and adhere to the Hague and Geneva conventions instead of acting like terrorists and executing civilians without trial.
 
What you see as a fine, sterling body of men to others looks like a state-sanctioned death squad of the type we associate with Latin American dictatorships. I am sure the Argentine Naval Officers of the School of Engineering looked magnificent in their splendid uniforms, that didn't make their murder of pregnant mothers any more justifiable.
I think you are going way over the top here Mike. Are you telling me that the ADRIC would torture male and female irish students and then chain them together naked and throw them alive out into the sea from a Hadley Page bomber.

That they would take the babies from the murdered women and give them up for adoption. That thousands of left wing dissidents would go missing. That there mothers would parade in Dublin asking for answers for years.

The nearest Ireland got according to an Argentinian state of affairs was Collins Dublin Squad in the Civil war according to : Bitter Freedom Ireland in a Revolutionary World. 1918-1923 by Maurice Walsh.

Oh and it was because of the action of British Forces in the Falklands in 1982 that the Argentinian Military Junta collapsed and a democratic civilian government elected.

PS: If you reply to this, dont forget to take your meds, take a deep breath and make sure Michael the cat is in a safe place. He didn't return home for two days the last time.
 
Honestly, the only difference was in scale. Look at the cases I cited, a local clergyman kidnapped and murdered, a city mayor assassinated on his doorstep, a pregnant mother of three gunned down outside her house in front of her children, two brothers tied behind a truck and dragged down a road, tortured and then "disappeared".

That is death squad stuff, plain and simple, carried out by state-sanctioned paramilitaries. It's no surprise to learn that when they went to Palestine later they replicated exactly the same methods against Zionist agitators there. You can say the IRA did similar stuff and I will agree with you, but they were the "terrorists", policemen are supposed to behave in a rather more, how shall I put it? Law-abiding way perhaps?

Look, I am always up for a good, well-researched piece of revisionism, I grew up on the tales of the Tans being the scrapings of English jails and was surprised to learn later that this wasn't so.

However, to airbrush out the atrocities, and they were atrocities, does no justice to the historical record. You rightly pointed out the King was horrified by what was going on, I am sure he wasn't listening to a load of oul' blarney, I am pretty sure he must have been very well-informed about what was going on.

ETA: I gave you the funny for the cat comment.
 
Honestly, the only difference was in scale. Look at the cases I cited, a local clergyman kidnapped and murdered, a city mayor assassinated on his doorstep, a pregnant mother of three gunned down outside her house in front of her children, two brothers tied behind a truck and dragged down a road, tortured and then "disappeared".

That is death squad stuff, plain and simple, carried out by state-sanctioned paramilitaries. It's no surprise to learn that when they went to Palestine later they replicated exactly the same methods against Zionist agitators there. You can say the IRA did similar stuff and I will agree with you, but they were the "terrorists", policemen are supposed to behave in a rather more, how shall I put it? Law-abiding way perhaps?

Look, I am always up for a good, well-researched piece of revisionism, I grew up on the tales of the Tans being the scrapings of English jails and was surprised to learn later that this wasn't so.

However, to airbrush out the atrocities, and they were atrocities, does no justice to the historical record. You rightly pointed out the King was horrified by what was going on, I am sure he wasn't listening to a load of oul' blarney, I am pretty sure he must have been very well-informed about what was going on.

ETA: I gave you the funny for the cat comment.
Oh well we will just have to agree to differ and just enjoy the thread. I can't wait until we get to the civil war.
 

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