Irish War of Independence centenary

Read an account today which implied ADRIC was the home of adventurers and mavericks with lots of booze and women. I don't think they were slavish followers of rules except for when it suited them, many were 'temporary gentlemen' unemployed after WW1. Not the elite the adverts suggested or vastly experienced combat veteran officers from the 'right sort of background' but a very interesting bunch. Check out 165 Interesting ADRIC men I wish I had been any one of them.

What is interesting is Dave Allen's dad who was an Auxie in a fairly controversial Company, left to join the Palestine Police then returned to Dublin to take over a Newspaper without it seems comment from the IRA. Strange bunch of people.
He joined after the truce in July 1921 and left in 1922 when it was disbanded. He had previously served a year as an officer in one of the Irish Regiments from 1919-20.

Most of the pre war officers had been killed off during the war. Most of the ADRIC were from upper working class/lower middle class backgrounds. They were from a variety of Regiments and Corps, and included RAF, RM and RN. A lot of them had seen action in the war, as can be seen from the medal ribbons. They included 3 awarded the VC. There were Australians, Canadians, and even an American amongst there number. One of the men murdered at Kilmichael was ex RFC/RAF with a DFC and 9 victories to his credit.

Officers at that time were awarded a bounty of about £1500 at the end of their military service, so they were not destitute when they applied. Pay was a pound a day all founded. At the end of their contract when they were disbanded in 1922 they were awarded an average bounty of £365.

The ADRIC were a means to an end. By 1920 the British had let the situation drift until Ireland was virtually ungovernable. You have to remember the world situation at the time. A World war like no other up to that time had just finished. The British had suffered a million dead, was broke and exhausted. The army was in a state of flux with the survivors of the war being demobbed and their places taken by raw recruits.

Old orders which had ruled for centuries like the Hapsburgs, Czars, and Ottomans had been swept away. There was a big civil war in Russia with low level civil wars in German,y Finland and elsewhere.The Poles under General Pilsudski had just given the Russians a good shoeing at the 'Miracle of the Vistula'

There was trouble in the Empire in Iraqi and India with the Amritsar affair, plus the Afghani's attempting a sneaky land grab in 1919.

At home there were strikes by soldiers angry at the delay in demobilisation, and by the police at poor terms and conditions. The Government were worried that the reds and the bolshevic's were going to rise up and seize power.

Add to this a pandemic with the Spanish flu. And then on top of this the paddies start playing up again.

The RIC Special Reserve with its influx of men with military service stablised the situation with holding ground with regard to RIC stations and were a static force intergrated with, and under the command of regular RIC officers. The ADRIC were organised in company strengh in different locations around the troubled areas. Their Company and Platoon officers were elected by their men usually being former company officers of Major and above.

Much of their performance and subseqent behaviour depended on the strengh of character of these men. They must have been dificult to handle being such a diverse bunch and being former officers doing what was basically a private soldiers job. K company was disbanded after they got out of control in Cork. Their was quite a turnover of personnel during their 17 month existance, with an averarage strengh of 1500 out of 2300 shown as having served.

At the end of the day the ADRIC with their constant raids on the IRA, backed up an army surge and marshall law forced Collins to the negotiating table where the treaty he signed was basically what was on offer in 1914. The British Government was then able to claim that 'It had been able to finally solve the Irish question', and hope that they didn't have to hear too much about the place again. Little did they know.

So, harsh method's looking from todays liberal viewpoint, even regarded by the King and public at the time with dismay, but with all history it must be looked at from the context of the time.
 
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The ADRIC with the Lewis gun, etc., shooting at the RIC. :rolleyes:
No IRA involved. Four dead.



Fascinating, thank you.

I was genuinely curious as to who could have been doing the firing. The fact that the premises shot up was a fairly respectable hotel (as opposed to a corner pub or shebeen) made me assume the target was off-duty policemen but the weapon used, a Lewis gun, indicated that it was more likely Crown Forces doing the shooting, so I was intrigued as to what the incident was about.

It really does add to the impression that while the ADRIC were not the "scrapings of England's jails" that Republican propaganda painted them as, they weren't the fine upstanding, square-jawed upholders of law and order which some posters here are trying to paint them as either.
 
So, harsh method's looking from todays liberal viewpoint, even regarded by the King and public at the time with dismay, but with all history it must be looked at from the context of the time.
Well you say that, as if it's only us snowflakes of a modern generation who would be repelled by their behaviour, and that back in the good old days of wooden ships and iron men such things were taken much more with a pinch of salt.

But that is not the case, even then people were horrified at what men in British uniform were doing to British subjects in the name of the British government in the United Kingdom.

Trust me, shooting a pregnant mother of three was considered a bit off even back then, as was dragging two brothers behind a motor truck before finishing them off and dumping their bodies in a bog, as was kidnapping a clergyman and murdering him, as was shooting the democratically elected lord mayor of a major town on his doorstep. Even back then you know, people rather objected to policemen doing that sort of thing, it didn't seem right some how.

You yourself say the King was dismayed, do you think he was getting all his information from Tim Pat Coogan too, or do you think he might have actually got a fair impression about what his servants were doing in his name in Ireland?

What you see as a fine, sterling body of men to others looks like a state-sanctioned death squad of the type we associate with Latin American dictatorships. I am sure the Argentine Naval Officers of the School of Engineering looked magnificent in their splendid uniforms, that didn't make their murder of pregnant mothers any more justifiable.

As anyone who has read my comments on other threads will know I am as far from a MOPEing Shinner as you are likely to get, but I do rather object to the idea that it's OK to shoot British subjects in cold blood if they happen to be Irish.
 
Well you say that, as if it's only us snowflakes of a modern generation who would be repelled by their behaviour, and that back in the good old days of wooden ships and iron men such things were taken much more with a pinch of salt.

But that is not the case, even then people were horrified at what men in British uniform were doing to British subjects in the name of the British government in the United Kingdom.

Trust me, shooting a pregnant mother of three was considered a bit off even back then, as was dragging two brothers behind a motor truck before finishing them off and dumping their bodies in a bog, as was kidnapping a clergyman and murdering him, as was shooting the democratically elected lord mayor of a major town on his doorstep. Even back then you know, people rather objected to policemen doing that sort of thing, it didn't seem right some how.

You yourself say the King was dismayed, do you think he was getting all his information from Tim Pat Coogan too, or do you think he might have actually got a fair impression about what his servants were doing in his name in Ireland?

What you see as a fine, sterling body of men to others looks like a state-sanctioned death squad of the type we associate with Latin American dictatorships. I am sure the Argentine Naval Officers of the School of Engineering looked magnificent in their splendid uniforms, that didn't make their murder of pregnant mothers any more justifiable.

As anyone who has read my comments on other threads will know I am as far from a MOPEing Shinner as you are likely to get, but I do rather object to the idea that it's OK to shoot British subjects in cold blood if they happen to be Irish.
Or, as he is 'affectionately' known in certain quarters: Tim Fat Fenian
 
Come on now @par avion, randomly hanging dumb boxes on every post I make seems more than a little churlish.

If you object to a point I make (even the tongue in cheek ones, apparently) or find I have made a factual error or simply have an honest disagreement with me take me up and challenge me on the facts.

Simply sticking dumb boxes on everything is a wee bit pathetic and I can't help feel you'd be better off simply adding me to your ignore list.
 
It really does add to the impression that while the ADRIC were not the "scrapings of England's jails" that Republican propaganda painted them as, they weren't the fine upstanding, square-jawed upholders of law and order which some posters here are trying to paint them as either.
I was curious too, for the same reasons. I'd thought it had to be the IRA with one of their new Thompson SMGs.

The post by 'LGShiner' on the 2nd page of the 3rd link was interesting, the poster said his/her grandfather was an ADRIC man who'd shot one of the plain clothes RIC men.

" I remember him telling me not long before he died aged 87 that he was fearful of not what he did on the Western Front but his time in Ireland. As we know the Auxies wreaked havoc in Ireland and the Irish still remember their atrocities. Mind you the IRA were also guilty of the same."

Lord Parmoor's brother, Harrison Cripps, witnessed the incident (first link) and had picked up an ejected dud cartridge on which the bullet had been reversed. The explanation was that the Shinners must have left it at the hotel.

One of the posters commented that this was crucial incident, in that the IRA couldn't be blamed for the mayhem and it caused Lloyd George to realise things were beyond control and to open negotiations with Sinn Fein.

"Some time before the terrible tragedy, lnspector Biggs had figured in an incident that shook the British Cabinet into a realisation of the injustices and other crimes being inflicted on the people of Ireland by the Auxiliary police and military. A few days after the brutal murder by Crown forces of Denis O'Donovan at his premises, Shannon Hotel, Castleconnell, Biggs, with a drawn revolver in hand, searched every part of the hotel for surgeon Harrison Cripps, who was on a fishing holiday in Castleconnell and had been staying in the hotel. Doubtless, it was his intention to silence the surgeon, who had witnessed the savagery a few days previously. Unknown to Biggs, Harrison Cripps had broken off his holiday, and was on his way to London, where he wrote a very famous letter to his brother, Lord Parmoor, who read it in the House of Lords, a full account of what had happened in Castleconnell, and of the cruel conduct of the Auxiliary forces there. This disclosure led to a heated debate, and Parmoor and Cecil crossed the floor of the House as a protest against the activities of the Crown forces in Ireland.

William T. Cosgrave, in a letter to one of Limerick's most prominent citizens, stated that Lord Parmoor's protest and disclosures had had a salutary affect on Lloyd George, who shortly afterwards looked for a truce. "

Bottom right, 5th page.
 
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I was curious too, for the same reasons. I'd thought it had to be the IRA with one of their new Thompson SMGs.

The post by 'LGShiner' on the 2nd page of the 3rd link was interesting, the poster said his/her grandfather was an ADRIC man who'd shot one of the plain clothes RIC men.

" I remember him telling me not long before he died aged 87 that he was fearful of not what he did on the Western Front but his time in Ireland. As we know the Auxies wreaked havoc in Ireland and the Irish still remember their atrocities. Mind you the IRA were also guilty of the same."

Lord Parmoor's brother, Harrison Cripps, witnessed the incident (first link) and had picked up an ejected dud cartridge on which the bullet had been reversed. The explanation was that the Shinners must have left it at the hotel.

One of the posters commented that this was crucial incident, in that the IRA couldn't be blamed for the mayhem and it caused Lloyd George to realise things were beyond control and to open negotiations with Sinn Fein.

"Some time before the terrible tragedy, lnspector Biggs had figured in an incident that shook the British Cabinet into a realisation of the injustices and other crimes being inflicted on the people of Ireland by the Auxiliary police and military. A few days after the brutal murder by Crown forces of Denis O'Donovan at his premises, Shannon Hotel, Castleconnell, Biggs, with a drawn revolver in hand, searched every part of the hotel for surgeon Harrison Cripps, who was on a fishing holiday in Castleconnell and had been staying in the hotel. Doubtless, it was his intention to silence the surgeon, who had witnessed the savagery a few days previously. Unknown to Biggs, Harrison Cripps had broken off his holiday, and was on his way to London, where he wrote a very famous letter to his brother, Lord Parmoor, who read it in the House of Lords, a full account of what had happened in Castleconnell, and of the cruel conduct of the Auxiliary forces there. This disclosure led to a heated debate, and Parmoor and Cecil crossed the floor of the House as a protest against the activities of the Crown forces in Ireland.

William T. Cosgrave, in a letter to one of Limerick's most prominent citizens, stated that Lord Parmoor's protest and disclosures had had a salutary affect on Lloyd George, who shortly afterwards looked for a truce. "

Bottom right, 5th page.
That really is an extraordinary incident, it's strange that it's not more widely known (no doubt Gary Cooper will come to it at the appropriate time).

At first I thought it must have just been a terrible case of blue-on-blue, Auxies mistaking RIC detectives for IRA men, but the fact that one of them came back days later to murder an English doctor to prevent him testifying about what happened really does illuminate the state of lawlessness that the Auxies had descended to by that stage.

Although it is worth noting somewhat cynically that it wasn't until RIC men were being killed and English tourists threatened that the government finally decided to take action against them.
 
Couldn't the Peelers afford their own bikes then, without having to steal them off the local farmers and grocery delivery boys? ;)
I wondered what had happened to the bicycles, I doubt that they were handing out receipts. Maybe they redistributed them to loyal citizens or they're still in a storage depot in Belfast.
 
The Right Marker has slack fingers!
Now you mention it, it looks like the inspecting officer may be missing most of his right index finger. It could be folded inwards.
 
I wondered what had happened to the bicycles, I doubt that they were handing out receipts. Maybe they redistributed them to loyal citizens or they're still in a storage depot in Belfast.
It appears that confiscating bicycles was part of martial law, introduced in four of the 26 counties in December 1920 to help restrict IRA mobility. Taken from this link, p116:


'Organised retaliation' apparently, according to the author.

Kind of makes sense now, when you think Michael Collins et al used bikes to get around Dublin in a quick and efficient manner.
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
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The power of the landed class was in decline since the late 19th century when low interest loans were made available to tennent farmers. There were catholic irishmen in high positions in the civil service and elsewhere. General Byan Mahon Cin C Ireland 1916-18 was an Irish catholic and entered the Irish parliement after independence..
There were still a lot of the Anglo-Irish landed gentry in Ireland, a lot (275) of their big houses were burned by the IRA, partly in retaliation for the destruction of the houses of IRA men or their supporters. (which this thread has now got onto).

Land reforms had been taking place and some of the large estates had been sold off or redistributed to the tenants before WW1. The landlord's house in the area that I knew wasn't burned, I Googled it recently to find out why and it turned out that the estate had been sold off around 1910 and the house had been bought by a returned Catholic emigrant with money he'd made in South America.

Were the peaple who understanably voted for Irish independence also voting for the violent means by which it was to be implemented. Home rule was on its way anyway. Which is what they got in 1922.
No, no more than those who'd voted for Blair or Bush had approved their invading Iraq. The violent men were eager to get on with dispensing violence.

Similarly, the British weren't prepared to recognise the Dáil Éireann "...the British Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (the KIng's representative in Ireland) , "Lord French, is today the master of Ireland. He alone [...] will decide upon the type of government the country is to have, and it is he rather than any member of the House of Commons, who will be the judge of political and industrial reforms"

 
Come on now @par avion, randomly hanging dumb boxes on every post I make seems more than a little churlish.

If you object to a point I make (even the tongue in cheek ones, apparently) or find I have made a factual error or simply have an honest disagreement with me take me up and challenge me on the facts.

Simply sticking dumb boxes on everything is a wee bit pathetic and I can't help feel you'd be better off simply adding me to your ignore list.
Mike, I don't even bother reading your posts like you do when you rant and rave. You are not a young man anymore and you must be careful you don't get a stroke through high blood pressure.

I imagine you sitting at your laptop banging away at the keyboard with the wind howling, a full moon, and a black cat called Michael Collins sitting by you looking alarmed.

I would not put you on ignore as you post some good material sometimes.

My post's are based on books I have bought from Irish authors like Paul O'Brien - editer of the Irish Defence Force magazine, and Ernest McCall's Tudor's Toughs. I have a number of other books by Irish authors covering the period from 1914-26.

I buy them because they provide a balanced view of these times. There are also a number of good articles and videos on the internet by Irish authors re-appraising these events as the 100th anniversarys come round.

There is nothing much from the British side since 1922 as no-one is really interested in Ireland and its history.

Carry on reading the history according to Tim Pat Coogan if you wish. I don't care. All the peaple on both sides of the conflict are long dead. Even young peaple in the Republic don't care anymore. Just a bunch of diehard mainly elderly republicans who think Michael Collins was a sell-out and a traitor. They probably think you are a West Brit.

Ireland needs to watch out it is not sold out by the Germans. When push comes to shove they will always side with their hun brothers as they have always had an unrequited love for the English. The French will sell you out as soon as you are no use to them because ...well they are French.
 
Mike, I don't even bother reading your posts like you do when you rant and rave. You are not a young man anymore and you must be careful you don't get a stroke through high blood pressure.

I imagine you sitting at your laptop banging away at the keyboard with the wind howling, a full moon, and a black cat called Michael Collins sitting by you looking alarmed.

I would not put you on ignore as you post some good material sometimes.

My post's are based on books I have bought from Irish authors like Paul O'Brien - editer of the Irish Defence Force magazine, and Ernest McCall's Tudor's Toughs. I have a number of other books by Irish authors covering the period from 1914-26.

I buy them because they provide a balanced view of these times. There are also a number of good articles and videos on the internet by Irish authors re-appraising these events as the 100th anniversarys come round.

There is nothing much from the British side since 1922 as no-one is really interested in Ireland and its history.

Carry on reading the history according to Tim Pat Coogan if you wish. I don't care. All the peaple on both sides of the conflict are long dead. Even young peaple in the Republic don't care anymore. Just a bunch of diehard mainly elderly republicans who think Michael Collins was a sell-out and a traitor. They probably think you are a West Brit.

Ireland needs to watch out it is not sold out by the Germans. When push comes to shove they will always side with their hun brothers as they have always had an unrequited love for the English. The French will sell you out as soon as you are no use to them because ...well they are French.
Trust me, they definitely think I am a West Brit, I have been told so enough times to my face, that's why I find it so amusing to discover that I am regarded as some sort of Fenian agitator here.

As for Coogan, I can honestly say I have never read a single book he has written, he comes across as a pompous, bombastic oaf who merely regurgitates, selectively, stuff that proper historians have written and puts his own populist spin on it, I don't mind popular history, but Tim Pat Coogan doesn't do it for me.

I recall he was on some late night Channel 4 discussion programme 30 years or more ago and they cut to a video clip of some young Irish people talking about their lives when one of them began speaking in Irish, it was nothing remarkable just something about how property prices in the west of Ireland weren't matching those in Dublin at that time. I knew what he was saying because the TV producers kindly provided subtitles, but clearly the subtitles weren't available for the participants in the studio because the chairman asked Coogan what the lad had just said.

Quick as a flash Coogan says, "Oh, he was simply describing the harsh ethereal beauty of his native land and how it spoke to his soul and how the generations of his forefathers fought and died for his beloved country", the rest of the group nodded at this wise sagacity in one so young.

It confirmed what I already knew, Tim Pat Coogan is a bloviating windbag.
 
Some old county regts had them, sometimes worn with Mess dress. The piping on them also the fold at the top were the Regimental colour, ours was 'Grass Green.
Didn't an Irish regiment wear a cap like that? Queen's Royal Irish Hussars, if I recall correctly seeing an illustration about the Borneo campaign, of all things.
 
Mike, I don't even bother reading your posts like you do when you rant and rave. You are not a young man anymore and you must be careful you don't get a stroke through high blood pressure.

I imagine you sitting at your laptop banging away at the keyboard with the wind howling, a full moon, and a black cat called Michael Collins sitting by you looking alarmed.

I would not put you on ignore as you post some good material sometimes.

My post's are based on books I have bought from Irish authors like Paul O'Brien - editer of the Irish Defence Force magazine, and Ernest McCall's Tudor's Toughs. I have a number of other books by Irish authors covering the period from 1914-26.

I buy them because they provide a balanced view of these times. There are also a number of good articles and videos on the internet by Irish authors re-appraising these events as the 100th anniversarys come round.

There is nothing much from the British side since 1922 as no-one is really interested in Ireland and its history.

Carry on reading the history according to Tim Pat Coogan if you wish. I don't care. All the peaple on both sides of the conflict are long dead. Even young peaple in the Republic don't care anymore. Just a bunch of diehard mainly elderly republicans who think Michael Collins was a sell-out and a traitor. They probably think you are a West Brit.

Ireland needs to watch out it is not sold out by the Germans. When push comes to shove they will always side with their hun brothers as they have always had an unrequited love for the English. The French will sell you out as soon as you are no use to them because ...well they are French.
That final para - too true blue
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
There were still a lot of the Anglo-Irish landed gentry in Ireland, a lot (275) of their big houses were burned by the IRA, partly in retaliation for the destruction of the houses of IRA men or their supporters. (which this thread has now got onto).

Land reforms had been taking place and some of the large estates had been sold off or redistributed to the tenants before WW1. The landlord's house in the area that I knew wasn't burned, I Googled it recently to find out why and it turned out that the estate had been sold off around 1910 and the house had been bought by a returned Catholic emigrant with money he'd made in South America.



No, no more than those who'd voted for Blair or Bush had approved their invading Iraq. The violent men were eager to get on with dispensing violence.

Similarly, the British weren't prepared to recognise the Dáil Éireann "...the British Lord Lieutenant of Ireland (the KIng's representative in Ireland) , "Lord French, is today the master of Ireland. He alone [...] will decide upon the type of government the country is to have, and it is he rather than any member of the House of Commons, who will be the judge of political and industrial reforms"

It always used to amaze us on Banner to hear that thousands of Protestants lived happily and untouched in the South, furthermore the girls coming over the border in Enniskillen on weekends chatted happily with us.
 
17 February 1920

Colonel Cotton, officer in command of troops in Ennis, Co. Clare was travelling from Ennis to Ennistymon by car. He decided to go to Miltown Malbay instead. Soon after passing Inagh he overtook a party of armed men with five horses and carts resting by the roadside. As he approached the men scattered in all directions with some forgetting to take their weapons. The Colonel took possession of the guns which had been left by the ditch and immediately returned to Ennis. Some shots were fired and the car was hit but he escaped uninjured.
 

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