Irish War of Independence centenary

I think you are mistaken, English Common Law, which applied in Ireland at that time, cannot simply be overturned by a ruling of the cabinet.

If it is unlawful for a police constable to loot a public house or shoot the Lord Mayor of a large town then according to the law to do so is a crime.

The cabinet in 10 Downing Street deciding that in certain circumstances it might be acceptable to do so if the victims are Irish does not over rule Common Law.
Guess what? The very few Regular RIC who did break the law seem to have got away with it as did the 'Tans, Auxiliaries, USC and British Army. Move on, it is history and they are all dead now.
 
For those interested in the RIC barracks raids I could recommend this book:


Ernie O'Malley was an interesting character in his own right and published several books on the 'Tan war' from his perspective:

 
If you ever get a chance I would recommend a trip to the former Collins Barracks in Dublin, now a museum and an absolute treasure trove for artefacts from the period:

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I didn't take much photos of the War of Independence section as I was taking some ex squaddies on a 1916 Tour. I have plenty of 1916 Easter Rising photos which I may put on the 1916 thread if there is an appetite for that.
 

man_in_blue

Old-Salt
Guess what? The very few Regular RIC who did break the law seem to have got away with it as did the 'Tans, Auxiliaries, USC and British Army. Move on, it is history and they are all dead now.
I'm sure I read fairly recently of Auxiliaries at the very least being dismissed for bad/illegal behaviour and some going so far as being found guilty in courts martial and receiving proper sentences. I don't have the sources to hand, though, as I'm currently at my parents'.

Sent from my R19 using Tapatalk
 

par avion

War Hero
I'm sure I read fairly recently of Auxiliaries at the very least being dismissed for bad/illegal behaviour and some going so far as being found guilty in courts martial and receiving proper sentences. I don't have the sources to hand, though, as I'm currently at my parents'.

Sent from my R19 using Tapatalk
Some did, such as the Trim looters, but that they were re-instated.
 

par avion

War Hero
Seems a few of the terrorists involved later got their come uppance

Among those who participated in the attacks on the R.I.C. barracks at Carrigtwohill and Cloyne were the following who were later killed at Clonmult: Michael and David Desmond, Michael Hallahan, Jerry Aherne, Donal Dennehy, James Aherne (Cobh); and Paddy Sullivan and Maurice Moore (both of Cobh) who were executed. Others who took part in the attacks were: Jim McCarthy, Mick Murnane, Moss Barry, Dan Walsh, Maurice Horgan, Daithi O'Brien, Michael Burke, Tom O'Shea, Jack O'Connell, Michael Casey, T. Cotter, M. Cotter, S. Kelleher and M. White.

An account of Clonmult - Clonmult Massacre
It seems that the Auxilliaries were getting there own back for Kilmichael.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Guess what? The very few Regular RIC who did break the law seem to have got away with it as did the 'Tans, Auxiliaries, USC and British Army. Move on, it is history and they are all dead now.
Your suggestion that I "move on" rather implies that this is something that bothers me, trust me in the grand scheme of my life it's not something that remotely impacts on me.

But, as you say, it is history, and this is a thread discussing a historical era, and I am engaging in a historical discussion. It rather seems that it is you, rather than I, who has some peculiar personal hang up about the issue.

Perhaps you might suggest to @Gary Cooper to close this thread, and "move on", as you appear to be unhappy that posters are discussing and engaging in the fascinating chronology that he has so helpfully provided.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Mike Barton greetings! : I will look into it further, there are some shots of ambushes just after the event, a few bodies about. It is indeed a very interesting album. I shall over time place some more images up on here.
Here's the link I mentioned earlier hat tip to @moggy_cattermole

The Auxiliary Division of the RIC

And here are some of the men, if I am right, who are named in the photo.

"Bowen"

Eric C Bowen

"Shearlock"

Arthur J Shearlock

There appear to be three "Burkes" listed (an Irish name interestingly).

I can't make out the other name at the top.

"Grubbe" helpfully provides a photo and it certainly looks like the same man

Major George Francis Alcock Grubbe

"Kaufmann" (two "ns").

Cecil M Kaufmann, Norfolk Reg

"Simmonds"

Lt T Simmonds RND

You can enter your friend's grandfather's name to find out all about him.
 

par avion

War Hero
I have been loaned a large album of Black and Tans images by a friend, who had a Grandfather in the unit.
In the album showing company group photographs, there is a great display of WW1 Medals, and judging by the soldier's neatness of dress, it seems most of them had done regular service. So the old saying 'that they emptied the Liverpool jails to man the Black and Tans seems to be fallacy?
The image shown here are the officers of one of the companies. The officer in the middle is the Company Commander. His medals show that he was very well decorated during the recent war; however he died of pneumonia about 1930.
View attachment 449772
A fine bunch of men. They are indeed members of the Auxillary Division Royal Irish Constabulary. Recruited from men who had held the Kings commision most of them were men who had been commisioned from the ranks of the service battalions in the great war. Some were ex regular soldiers who had been commisioned.

I would imagine the photo was taken in 1921 as they are wearing RIC dark blue and balmoral bonnets.

They were in effect a police field force as later used in Malaya and Rhodesia. They were organised in company strengh of about 80-100 in 15 companies, They were highly mobile and mounted in ex RFC/RAF Crossley tenders and armed with SMLEs and two Lewis guns per section.

The director of British Intelligence in Ireland, Brigadier Sir Ormonde de L'Epee Winter was to prove one of the most dangerous individuals that republican forces would have to contend with. He directed that each raid by the ADRIC should produce intelligence leading to the next raid. Due to poor OPSEC by the Republicans these raids were highly successful. In 10 months operational service, together with a surge by the army, Collins and the IRA were forced to the negotiating table. What he got was basically the same deal as was on offer in 1916.

By July 1921 when the truce was signed, the IRA only possed 569 rifles with 20 rounds per weapon, and 477 revolvers with a limited supply of ammunition. Across Ireland there were only 2000 active personnel. The IRA Chief of Staff Richard Mulcahy knew that they could not continue the campaign.

In between the truce in July 1921 and the signing of the treaty there are numerous instances of the heroes of the IRA breaking the truce by murdering off duty RIC officers and indeed long retired officers, Shooting them at home while they were unarmed in front of their wives and children. Shooting them in church, even in the confession box. No doubt with a heads-up from the local catholic priest. All in the name of Irish freedom.

For some reason though there were no recorded attacks on the ADRIC.

Michael Collins is quoted as saying of the ADRIC: "Wherever they appeared it was because the men of the place had put up a good fight. The Volunteers knew generally they were the best fighters they had to meet".
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
For some reason though there were no recorded attacks on the ADRIC.
Presumably because the Auxies were all in well fortified barracks and not living at home with their families or going to Mass in the parish church.

I dare say if they had presented such easy targets the IRA would have been more than happy to have a crack at them.

As proven in Kilmichael, the IRA were not afraid of taking on the Auxies.
 
Weren't the auxiliaries organized on company lines. So most ric barracks might have had less than 10 or even 6 men, as opposed to 30 or more.

That being the case it'd be a considerably harder ask to attack their base.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
I have been loaned a large album of Black and Tans images by a friend, who had a Grandfather in the unit.
In the album showing company group photographs, there is a great display of WW1 Medals, and judging by the soldier's neatness of dress, it seems most of them had done regular service. So the old saying 'that they emptied the Liverpool jails to man the Black and Tans seems to be fallacy?
The image shown here are the officers of one of the companies. The officer in the middle is the Company Commander. His medals show that he was very well decorated during the recent war; however he died of pneumonia about 1930.
View attachment 449772
To further follow up, it would appear they were all in D Company in Galway and that in fact Grubbe was the commander.

D Company ADRIC in Galway

The "Burke" would appear therefore to be Thomas Francis Burke, born into an Irish family in Lanarkshire.

Thomas Francis Burke DSO

ETA: "Jock" Burke was involved in suspected criminality including suspicion of murder.
 

par avion

War Hero
Presumably because the Auxies were all in well fortified barracks and not living at home with their families or going to Mass in the parish church.

I dare say if they had presented such easy targets the IRA would have been more than happy to have a crack at them.

As proven in Kilmichael, the IRA were not afraid of taking on the Auxies.
Possibly, but they went out of their barracks during the truce especially in Dublin. A number of them were asassinated before the truce when off duty. Its unlikely they stayed confined in their barracks from July 1921 until the Treaty was signed in January 1922.

The reason was that the IRA feared the ADRIC. They had got what they wanted. They would not have risked provoking the ADRIC as they feared them according to Paul O'Brien in 'Havoc'.

In Kilmichael Tom Barry captured the Auxies by pretending to be a British officer. He then executed the prisoners and mutilated the bodies. I think they call it a war crime these days.

The only other IRA success against the ADRIC other than off duty assasinations was at Clonfin where Commandant Macoin's (the blacksmith of Ballinalee) treatment of wounded and captured Auxies was totatly the opposite of the psychopatic Barry, the bigot who ethnicaly cleansed Protestants from Bandon.
 
There appear to be three "Burkes" listed (an Irish name interestingly).
Strictly speaking it's an Anglo-Norman name. William de Burgh arrived in Ireland in 1185. Burgh is apparently a village in Suffolk. His descendants assimilated into Irish society, the family name was gaelicised as de Búrca and then re-anglicised as Burke or sometimes Bourke. It's certainly an Irish name now though- the 29th most common surname in Ireland.

"Grubbe" helpfully provides a photo and it certainly looks like the same man

Major George Francis Alcock Grubbe
The name struck a chord with me because there was a huge family of Grubbes in Tipperary. No surprise to see that Major Grubbe's father was from Waterford. Interestingly they were Quakers and should have been pacifists. The Major appears to have had a bad war. He appears far older than 38.
 
Your suggestion that I "move on" rather implies that this is something that bothers me, trust me in the grand scheme of my life it's not something that remotely impacts on me.

But, as you say, it is history, and this is a thread discussing a historical era, and I am engaging in a historical discussion. It rather seems that it is you, rather than I, who has some peculiar personal hang up about the issue.

Perhaps you might suggest to @Gary Cooper to close this thread, and "move on", as you appear to be unhappy that posters are discussing and engaging in the fascinating chronology that he has so helpfully provided.
It is very simple. You made a totally unsubstantiated claim that the RIC's discipline had collapsed. When I challenged your comment you went off on a rather emotional tangent about murders and all sorts.

When I have again come back at you, you have resorted to personal attack and escalated further by suggesting I ask for the thread to be closed along with a sychophantic grovel to Gary.

So to move this on, please provide evidence of a collapse of discipline in the RIC which lead to the widespread criminality to which you allude.
 
It is very simple. You made a totally unsubstantiated claim that the RIC's discipline had collapsed. When I challenged your comment you went off on a rather emotional tangent about murders and all sorts.

When I have again come back at you, you have resorted to personal attack and escalated further by suggesting I ask for the thread to be closed along with a sychophantic grovel to Gary.

So to move this on, please provide evidence of a collapse of discipline in the RIC which lead to the widespread criminality to which you allude.
Point of order.

I started the thread. However a big thanks to GC once again for the updates.
 

overopensights

ADC
Book Reviewer
civil war 2.jpg
 

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Seems a few of the terrorists involved later got their come uppance
Terrorists in this context would be those who were trying to overturn the democratically elected government with armed force?

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Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical medieval ceremony.where a bloke in a dress pours holy oil on you, puts a crown on your head and gives you a sword.
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help, I’m being repressed, etc., etc..
 

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