Irish War of Independence centenary

Yes, thanks for that but I am already fully aware of that I was discussing the generally held view in Great Britain where 99.9% of the population know little or nothing of the history of Ireland, the Easter Rising or the War of Independence, hence my use of the term "popular narrative"

You would be surprised by the number of people in GB who believe Ireland is a single country despite all the headlines regarding Brexit, the DUP, gay marriage, abortion, Stormont etc. There is also a common belief that Ireland is just off the coast with no real mutual history with the UK and is a bit like France in that respect.

Again I know the differences, but the greater majority of the population of GB know little and care less about Ireland north or south, a shame really.
And some of them are politicans

even the current SoS for NI had to be educated
 
Indeed, During teh Easter Rising, British troops had to be rushed to Dublin to stop the local Irish troops shooting every IRA or suspected IRA they got their hands on and the locals from lynching them.

If the British had simply locked them up, it would have been yesterdays news, if they'd shot all the uninjured, a bit of fuss, them yesterdays news, but shooting a man tied to a stretcher offended common Irish decency.

Notes also, that DeValera conveniently hid behind his American passport to avoid a bullet.


The IRA were pretty much a joke until lots of disgruntled Irish soldiers came home in 1918/19.
An interesting link regarding the Irish Regiments in Ireland at the start of the Rising:


Whilst troops from Britain were indeed rushed in I doubt that the residents of North King Street, Dublin would agree that it was exclusively Irish troops who needed to be stopped killing suspected Rebels (Irish Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army, not IRA). Whilst the events of North King Street are covered in the above link it is also covered here in more detail:


As for De Valera, I am no fan of his however there are theories that his survival was more a matter of timing and luck (His men were interned for a couple of days away from the main body at Richmond Barracks where the Court Martials were carried out):


 
An interesting link regarding the Irish Regiments in Ireland at the start of the Rising:


Whilst troops from Britain were indeed rushed in I doubt that the residents of North King Street, Dublin would agree that it was exclusively Irish troops who needed to be stopped killing suspected Rebels (Irish Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army, not IRA). Whilst the events of North King Street are covered in the above link it is also covered here in more detail:


As for De Valera, I am no fan of his however there are theories that his survival was more a matter of timing and luck (His men were interned for a couple of days away from the main body at Richmond Barracks where the Court Martials were carried out):


I read somewhere the IAVCT mentioned in the Century Ireland link, were locally known as 'The Gorgeous Wrecks' Due to the age profile,and the G"R on their cap badge.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Once again you demonstrate you clear ignorance of Irish, and British, History

There was no 'Battle Fleet' in the Clyde.
The Coast Guard wasn't
There weren't troops in 'every town', the clues in 'Garrison Towns'
The 'highly mobile and well armed Gendarmes', were neither mobile nor particularly well armed and lived in virtual siege in most parts of the country.
In 1914 the RIC were not living in virtual siege, and they never lived in virtual siege anywhere in Antrim.

They were trained and drilled as light infantry (hence their "rifle green" uniform) and were based in barracks all over Ireland with access to motor transport. They were a highly effective anti-subversion force and up until 1920 were very efficient at putting down insurrection. If the British authorities had wanted to stop the gun running they had a very useful and well seasoned force at hand to do so, they chose not to. Even after the guns were landed I dare say a couple of armed constables sent in the following days to every Orange hall in Ulster would have netted about 80 percent of the rifles. There is no evidence that any such raids took place.

You're right it wasn't a battle fleet, I am no sailor as you can determine, it was the Third Battle Squadron and it was at Lamlash in the Firth of Clyde.

There were British troops in Antrim, Carrickfergus, Armagh, Belfast, Omagh, Enniskillen, Monaghan and Derry. Like I say they were all washing their hair the night hundreds of cars, trucks and motorcycles packed with Mauser rifles from the Kaiser were roaring through the highways and bye ways of Ulster.

If there were no Coast Guard stations in Larne or elsewhere on the Antrim coast in 1914 I will happily eat my hat.*

(*ETA: A brief Google search brought me to this property for sale in Larne, you can now eat your hat.

)
 
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Mike Barton

War Hero
An interesting link regarding the Irish Regiments in Ireland at the start of the Rising:


Whilst troops from Britain were indeed rushed in I doubt that the residents of North King Street, Dublin would agree that it was exclusively Irish troops who needed to be stopped killing suspected Rebels (Irish Volunteers, Irish Citizen Army, not IRA). Whilst the events of North King Street are covered in the above link it is also covered here in more detail:


As for De Valera, I am no fan of his however there are theories that his survival was more a matter of timing and luck (His men were interned for a couple of days away from the main body at Richmond Barracks where the Court Martials were carried out):


You make an excellent point, the civilians massacred in Dublin were not the victims of Irish regiments, I believe it was the Staffordshires who were responsible for that little escapade.

Furthermore the much-quoted hostility of Dubliners to the Rebels is a bit of a myth. The accounts and memoirs of many of the Rebels after the event recounts a great many instances of assistance and sympathy for them, it was far from the universal anger that has often been portrayed.

The accounts of working class women ("shawlies") spitting and abusing the Rebels actually refers to a very few specific cases and for the most part related to the wives and widows of British soldiers.

I only realised recently that the Rising coincided with the first anniversary of the slaughter of the Dublin Fusiliers at Gallipoli. A large number of the angry women were widows who were, understandably, outraged that such an act of rebellion against British authority should take place on a day so sacred to them. Also it must be borne in mind that much of the abuse heaped on the Rebels occurred as they were marched into British Army barracks as prisoners. The women abusing them would have been soldiers' wives who lived locally or otherwise connected to and sympathetic with the British Army.

The actions of a relatively small number of women with a very specific axe to grind has long since passed into folklore as the entire population of Dublin hostile to the Rebels. This was most certainly not the case.
 
I liked the Behan story of a drama/documentary being made by RTE in the mid 60s for the 50th anniversary of the rising. A platoon of actors dressed as British Soldiers were marching down a street, when a Dublin 'Aul Wan' leaning out an upstairs window,calls out..' Thank God Youse are back boys.For this lot have made a hames of it since Youse left'.
 
My dear old Granny, may God rest her, might not agree about that.
I'm sure there were individual differences of opinion, but apparently the Cumann na mBan executive never passed any resolution that diverged from the position of the first Dail Eirann. A film has just been released about the organization with a lot of interview material from members who participated during the troubles......interesting, revealing and moving on occasions. Its called 'Cumann na mBan - The womens Army' directed by Bob White an Indianappolis based author. The film is freely accessible online.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
I liked the Behan story of a drama/documentary being made by RTE in the mid 60s for the 50th anniversary of the rising. A platoon of actors dressed as British Soldiers were marching down a street, when a Dublin 'Aul Wan' leaning out an upstairs window,calls out..' Thank God Youse are back boys.For this lot have made a hames of it since Youse left'.
The Behans of course as Dominic himself stated "lived on a Dublin street where the royal drums did beat". He would have been very familiar with the small minority of working class loyalists who lived in Dublin, and with his father's drunken entanglements with his neighbours.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
I'm sure there were individual differences of opinion, but apparently the Cumann na mBan executive never passed any resolution that diverged from the position of the first Dail Eirann. A film has just been released about the organization with a lot of interview material from members who participated during the troubles......interesting, revealing and moving on occasions. Its called 'Cumann na mBan - The womens Army' directed by Bob White an Indianappolis based author. The film is freely accessible online.
Thank you, I must get a look at that.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
'Granny' might be in it :cool:
She certainly was in a lot of stuff back then, I was shocked when I uncovered some of her history a while back from pension records etc. I had great difficulty reconciling the dear, sweet, old lady who sang lilting lullabies with the gun-slinging termagent she was described as in her youth.
 
You make an excellent point, the civilians massacred in Dublin were not the victims of Irish regiments, I believe it was the Staffordshires who were responsible for that little escapade.

Furthermore the much-quoted hostility of Dubliners to the Rebels is a bit of a myth. The accounts and memoirs of many of the Rebels after the event recounts a great many instances of assistance and sympathy for them, it was far from the universal anger that has often been portrayed.

The accounts of working class women ("shawlies") spitting and abusing the Rebels actually refers to a very few specific cases and for the most part related to the wives and widows of British soldiers.

I only realised recently that the Rising coincided with the first anniversary of the slaughter of the Dublin Fusiliers at Gallipoli. A large number of the angry women were widows who were, understandably, outraged that such an act of rebellion against British authority should take place on a day so sacred to them. Also it must be borne in mind that much of the abuse heaped on the Rebels occurred as they were marched into British Army barracks as prisoners. The women abusing them would have been soldiers' wives who lived locally or otherwise connected to and sympathetic with the British Army.

The actions of a relatively small number of women with a very specific axe to grind has long since passed into folklore as the entire population of Dublin hostile to the Rebels. This was most certainly not the case.
Your forgetting that large parts of the city had been destroyed

The rebels were blamed for this by the “jackeens”
 
I read somewhere the IAVCT mentioned in the Century Ireland link, were locally known as 'The Gorgeous Wrecks' Due to the age profile,and the G"R on their cap badge.
Indeed, four were killed in the action at Northumberland Rd during the early stages:


There is an Arrser, flamingo, who actually lived at 25 Northumberland Road during his student days, discussed in the 1916 thread.
 
In 1914 the RIC were not living in virtual siege, and they never lived in virtual siege anywhere in Antrim.

They were trained and drilled as light infantry (hence their "rifle green" uniform) and were based in barracks all over Ireland with access to motor transport. They were a highly effective anti-subversion force and up until 1920 were very efficient at putting down insurrection. If the British authorities had wanted to stop the gun running they had a very useful and well seasoned force at hand to do so, they chose not to. Even after the guns were landed I dare say a couple of armed constables sent in the following days to every Orange hall in Ulster would have netted about 80 percent of the rifles. There is no evidence that any such raids took place.

You're right it wasn't a battle fleet, I am no sailor as you can determine, it was the Third Battle Squadron and it was at Lamlash in the Firth of Clyde.

There were British troops in Antrim, Carrickfergus, Armagh, Belfast, Omagh, Enniskillen, Monaghan and Derry. Like I say they were all washing their hair the night hundreds of cars, trucks and motorcycles packed with Mauser rifles from the Kaiser were roaring through the highways and bye ways of Ulster.

If there were no Coast Guard stations in Larne or elsewhere on the Antrim coast in 1914 I will happily eat my hat.*

(*ETA: A brief Google search brought me to this property for sale in Larne, you can now eat your hat.

)
hate to break this to you Mason Boyne, there was life in Ireland outside Ulster, and the RICs remit was tenuous at best in the West and South West.
 
Furthermore the much-quoted hostility of Dubliners to the Rebels is a bit of a myth. The accounts and memoirs of many of the Rebels after the event recounts a great many instances of assistance and sympathy for them, it was far from the universal anger that has often been portrayed.
well, it’s not like the Rebels would try and big up there disastrous and unpopular Insurrection, is it?

The Royal Dublin fusiliers were particularly ‘robust’ with the rebels.
 

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