Irish War of Independence centenary

I thought his claim the Gardai go unarmed in a non violent country was rather amusing.

Must have been driving too many Jamesons seeing all these heavily tooled up Guards getting a bit frisky with the local rogues and the armed Troops guarding banks and Post Offices.

FWIW…

Strength of An Garda Síochána : 15,000

Authorised firearms Officers: 3,000

Guns in Garda armouries : 15,000
The guns in Garda armouries may include weapons owned by the public, as well as confiscated weapons.
Iirc, certain classes of firearm could be owned by the public but must be held by the Garda. In effect you signed it out for the day and signed it back in. That gave them the ability to control access, and be able to track the occurrences and place of the firearms use.
Could anyone clarify if I am correct or not ?
 

ugly

LE
Moderator
The guns in Garda armouries may include weapons owned by the public, as well as confiscated weapons.
Iirc, certain classes of firearm could be owned by the public but must be held by the Garda. In effect you signed it out for the day and signed it back in. That gave them the ability to control access, and be able to track the occurrences and place of the firearms use.
Could anyone clarify if I am correct or not ?
That used to apply to anything bigger than 22-250 in rifles so many target shooters kept rifles in clubs in the UK and practiced with rim fire!
The laws have changed but one firearm per plod is a bit light. In 1940 the met had enough for three per plod!
 
Although the Garda are ostensibly an 'unarmed' force, the reality is somewhat different.
Detectives are armed a a matter of course with handguns, and are not averse to breaking out some much more tasty shooters from the boot of their cars if the Indians are known to be hostile. The armed support units have always been very heavily tooled up and are not scared to get heavy - armed robberies are common, always have been, and are not Delroy and a kitchen knife in the Republic
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
We often forget the Irish Volunteers were preparing for war in 1914 rather than the popular narrative that the 1916 rising was universally unpopular and the IRA was a spontaneous organisation that fought the British in 1921.
Indeed they were but let's not forget that the Irish Volunteers were a reaction to the raising of the Ulster Volunteers up north and weren't remotely as well armed as the Ulstermen who were financed by a Tory establishment ready to rise up in rebellion against the democratic will of Parliament.

We will also quietly pass over how easy it was for the UVF to land 10,000 rifles under the noses of the Royal Navy, RIC, Coast Guard and Army who all seemed to be washing their hair the night the guns were landed despite the entire province being aware of when and where the landings would be.

Not like in Dublin when 1,000 antiquated rifles were landed in Howth and the British Army were immediately dispatched to intercept them shooting dead three Dubliners in the process.

It is a conveniently forgotten fact that for the century prior to the Home Rule crisis Irish nationalists had largely pursued their political aspirations through democratic and parliamentary methods and as soon as they achieved their results peacefully the "loyal" subjects of Ireland and the Conservative Party immediately erupted in armed rebellion against the Crown.
 
Indeed they were but let's not forget that the Irish Volunteers were a reaction to the raising of the Ulster Volunteers up north and weren't remotely as well armed as the Ulstermen who were financed by a Tory establishment ready to rise up in rebellion against the democratic will of Parliament.

We will also quietly pass over how easy it was for the UVF to land 10,000 rifles under the noses of the Royal Navy, RIC, Coast Guard and Army who all seemed to be washing their hair the night the guns were landed despite the entire province being aware of when and where the landings would be.

Not like in Dublin when 1,000 antiquated rifles were landed in Howth and the British Army were immediately dispatched to intercept them shooting dead three Dubliners in the process.

It is a conveniently forgotten fact that for the century prior to the Home Rule crisis Irish nationalists had largely pursued their political aspirations through democratic and parliamentary methods and as soon as they achieved their results peacefully the "loyal" subjects of Ireland and the Conservative Party immediately erupted in armed rebellion against the Crown.
Respectfully, you need to do more research into the landing mentioned in your second para.
Ancestors of mine participated, and family records make clear the planning and execution were carried out in great secrecy.
Certain low to middle ranking Police and Coastguard were brought on side - or blindsisded - but to suggest a high level institutional plot is wishful thinking
 
We often forget the Irish Volunteers were preparing for war in 1914 rather than the popular narrative that the 1916 rising was universally unpopular and the IRA was a spontaneous organisation that fought the British in 1921.
The 1916 Rising was unpopular with many at the time. The credit for transforming it into a national independence movement must go to the British government of the day, which never saw a minor problem that it didn't want to turn into a full-blown crisis.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the Volunteers had any other purpose than to prepare for war or fail to note the connection between the Rising and the War of Independence.
 
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It is a conveniently forgotten fact that for the century prior to the Home Rule crisis Irish nationalists had largely pursued their political aspirations through democratic and parliamentary methods and as soon as they achieved their results peacefully the "loyal" subjects of Ireland and the Conservative Party immediately erupted in armed rebellion against the Crown.
This is relevant to how imminent Home Rule was viewed.

"With Irish Home Rule due to become law in 1914, the British Cabinet contemplated some kind of military action against the Ulster Volunteers who threatened to rebel against it. Many officers, especially those with Irish Protestant connections, of whom the most prominent was Hubert Gough, threatened to resign or accept dismissal rather than obey, privately encouraged from London by senior officers including Henry Wilson."

The more conservative elements of the Irish Volunteers enlisted in 1914, leaving the more militant members in Ireland.
 
The 1916 Rising was unpopular with many at the time. The credit for transforming it into a national independence movement must go to the British government of the day, which never saw a minor problem that it didn't want to turn into a full-blown crisis.

I'm not sure why anyone would think that the Volunteers had any other purpose than to prepare for war or fail to note the connection between the Rising and the War of Independence.

Indeed, During teh Easter Rising, British troops had to be rushed to Dublin to stop the local Irish troops shooting every IRA or suspected IRA they got their hands on and the locals from lynching them.

If the British had simply locked them up, it would have been yesterdays news, if they'd shot all the uninjured, a bit of fuss, them yesterdays news, but shooting a man tied to a stretcher offended common Irish decency.

Notes also, that DeValera conveniently hid behind his American passport to avoid a bullet.


The IRA were pretty much a joke until lots of disgruntled Irish soldiers came home in 1918/19.
 
We often forget the Irish Volunteers were preparing for war in 1914 rather than the popular narrative that the 1916 rising was universally unpopular and the IRA was a spontaneous organisation that fought the British in 1921.
GB declared war on Germany on 04 Aug 1914

John Redmond called on the Irish Volunteers to join the British Army on 20 Sept 1914. An estimated 175,000 volunteers agreed with him... leaving less than 14,000

The Rising, which caused normal Dubliners a lot of suffering, was unpopular until the executions.
 
Indeed they were but let's not forget that the Irish Volunteers were a reaction to the raising of the Ulster Volunteers up north and weren't remotely as well armed as the Ulstermen who were financed by a Tory establishment ready to rise up in rebellion against the democratic will of Parliament.

We will also quietly pass over how easy it was for the UVF to land 10,000 rifles under the noses of the Royal Navy, RIC, Coast Guard and Army who all seemed to be washing their hair the night the guns were landed despite the entire province being aware of when and where the landings would be.

Not like in Dublin when 1,000 antiquated rifles were landed in Howth and the British Army were immediately dispatched to intercept them shooting dead three Dubliners in the process.

It is a conveniently forgotten fact that for the century prior to the Home Rule crisis Irish nationalists had largely pursued their political aspirations through democratic and parliamentary methods and as soon as they achieved their results peacefully the "loyal" subjects of Ireland and the Conservative Party immediately erupted in armed rebellion against the Crown.
At least Ronnie Drew went on to great things.. ;)
 
GB declared war on Germany on 04 Aug 1914

John Redmond called on the Irish Volunteers to join the British Army on 20 Sept 1914. An estimated 175,000 volunteers agreed with him... leaving less than 14,000

The Rising, which caused normal Dubliners a lot of suffering, was unpopular until the executions.
Yes, thanks for that but I am already fully aware of that I was discussing the generally held view in Great Britain where 99.9% of the population know little or nothing of the history of Ireland, the Easter Rising or the War of Independence, hence my use of the term "popular narrative"

You would be surprised by the number of people in GB who believe Ireland is a single country despite all the headlines regarding Brexit, the DUP, gay marriage, abortion, Stormont etc. There is also a common belief that Ireland is just off the coast with no real mutual history with the UK and is a bit like France in that respect.

Again I know the differences, but the greater majority of the population of GB know little and care less about Ireland north or south, a shame really.
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
Respectfully, you need to do more research into the landing mentioned in your second para.
Ancestors of mine participated, and family records make clear the planning and execution were carried out in great secrecy.
Certain low to middle ranking Police and Coastguard were brought on side - or blindsisded - but to suggest a high level institutional plot is wishful thinking
The newspapers in Britain were breathlessly reporting the progress of Crawford's gun-running ship from the moment it left Hamburg. The Royal Navy, the greatest fleet on planet Earth, could have very easily blockaded the half a dozen possible ports on the Ulster coast to prevent the arrival of one clapped-out coal steamer.

The RIC, which had for decades run the most meticulous intelligence system in Ireland, with agents infiltrated into every political organisation would surely have had inside sources in the UVF. The UVF handed out hundreds of messages to car and motorcycle owners to assemble in Larne on the night of the landings, do you think not a single one of those messages passed into the hands of the RIC? And when those hundreds of cars and motorbikes, this was 1914 remember, started converging on Larne in the middle of the night, do you think no one noticed?

Thousands of volunteers manned the roads out of Larne and Belfast that night, Larne itself was thronged with volunteers providing logistical support and refreshments. All this was going on in the middle of the night in a sleepy wee Antrim port when a ship full of UVF guns was known to be about to land and no one in authority did a damned thing because they had no idea? That stretches credulity to a huge extent.

Fine, there was a minor and fairly obvious diversion in Belfast harbour, that might have fooled a child but seriously, you really believe no one in the high command of the British Army in Ireland, an officer corps that would rather mutiny than fight the UVF, had the faintest idea of what was going on?

The landing of the weapons was described as methodical and unrushed, the weapons were all got away without a single loss (as if cars and motorcycles driving around the roads of rural Ulster in the middle of the night in 1914 wouldn't attract any attention), and none were ever seized or indeed does it appear any search was ever made for them. Does that sound like the result of a vast conspiracy that was so secret no one in authority knew it was happening or the result of a brazen operation carried out in the full knowledge that no one in authority was making the least effort to stop it?

Like I say compare and contrast Howth and Larne to draw the obvious conclusions.
 
Crawford's gun-running ship
There were two actually, one the very aptly named SS Fanny which carried the weapons from Denmark and cross decked them to the Clyde Valley just off Wexford. Somehow the Fanny Flute Band doesn't have the same ring to it though.
 

JCC

War Hero
...

The RIC, which had for decades run the most meticulous intelligence system in Ireland, with agents infiltrated into every political organisation would surely have had inside sources in the UVF. The UVF handed out hundreds of messages to car and motorcycle owners to assemble in Larne on the night of the landings, do you think not a single one of those messages passed into the hands of the RIC? And when those hundreds of cars and motorbikes, this was 1914 remember, started converging on Larne in the middle of the night, do you think no one noticed?

...

The landing of the weapons was described as methodical and unrushed, the weapons were all got away without a single loss (as if cars and motorcycles driving around the roads of rural Ulster in the middle of the night in 1914 wouldn't attract any attention), and none were ever seized or indeed does it appear any search was ever made for them. Does that sound like the result of a vast conspiracy that was so secret no one in authority knew it was happening or the result of a brazen operation carried out in the full knowledge that no one in authority was making the least effort to stop it?

Like I say compare and contrast Howth and Larne to draw the obvious conclusions.
As you can clearly see they had their caps firmly pulled down over their ears.

img722.png
 

Mike Barton

War Hero
As you can clearly see they had their caps firmly pulled down over their ears.

View attachment 436147
Good Lord! Is that in broad daylight?

All in the most heavily policed and militarised part of the United Kingdom, under the noses of the Coast Guard, with a battle fleet stationed 30 miles away in the Clyde, troops garrisoned in every town, and thousands of highly mobile well-armed gendarmes based in barracks in every town and village.

Yup, it really looks like those fellas were engaged in a top secret, clandestine operation that no one in authority knew a thing about.

How did they get away with it? It's a total mystery I tells ya.
 
All in the most heavily policed and militarised part of the United Kingdom, under the noses of the Coast Guard, with a battle fleet stationed 30 miles away in the Clyde, troops garrisoned in every town, and thousands of highly mobile well-armed gendarmes based in barracks in every town and village.

Once again you demonstrate you clear ignorance of Irish, and British, History

There was no 'Battle Fleet' in the Clyde.
The Coast Guard wasn't
There weren't troops in 'every town', the clues in 'Garrison Towns'
The 'highly mobile and well armed Gendarmes', were neither mobile nor particularly well armed and lived in virtual siege in most parts of the country.
 

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