Irish War of Independence centenary

11 August 1921

DeValera's reply to Lloyd George was delivered to 10 Downing Street by Robert Barton, Art O'Brien, and Joseph McGrath. As Lloyd Georgewa in Paris at the Allied Conference on the Upper Silesian crisis, a copy of the reply was flown to France. Lloyd George decided to abandon the Conference to deal with the breakup of the UK. Meanwhile Austen Chamberlain summoned a meeting of the Cabinet at 2.30 pm, although in the absence of the PM, nobody wanted to take the responsibility for starting a Truce-breaking crisis.

Over in the US, and totally unrelated to the WOI, Fr. James Coyle, originally from Roscommon, was shot dead by the Reverend Edwin Stephenson, a Methodist and member of the KKK. Coyle had just married Stephenson's daughter, who had converted to Catholicism, to a Puero Rican man. As an NCO of my acquaintance once said, “I don’t blame your parents, I blame the Priest that married them.”
 
12 August 1921

Lloyd George arrived back in London from Paris after hurriedly leaving the Allied conference to deal with DeValera's reply. He met with Nevil Macready before before going to Buckingham Palace to update the King. A meeting of the British Cabinet was subsequently held to consider de Valera’s letter. It was attended by Nevil Macready, Henry Tudor and Edmund Fitzalan, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland.

At a Sinn Féin Standing Committee meeting, Griffith said that with a third of the population in the six counties opposed to partition the Belfast Parliament could not function.

In Drangan, Co. Tipperary 12,000 people attended the funeral of Dinny Sadlier. Sadleir had been accidentally shot dead in June by a fellow Volunteer. He had been buried in a field in Grangemockler until he was reinterred in the family plot in Drangan.
 
13 August 1921

Lloyd George replied to De Valera’s letter of the 10th. Having been dragged untimely from the embrace of the fair Frances in Paris, LG was somewhat tetchy.

“Nothing is to be gained by prolonging a theoretical discussion of the national status. No British government can compromise — namely the claim that we should acknowledge the right of Ireland to secede from her allegiance to the King. No such right can ever be acknowledged by us.” He also said that any settlement on Irish unity would have to be bound by the six main conditions of the proposal document.

Seán T. O'Kelly, Dáil Éireann's principal diplomat, who has lived in Paris since February 1919, landed in Kingstown on this date, Along with his wife, Kit,

In Belfast, two men were assaulted while working on the docks. John Quinn was forced from a crane he was operating and beaten and shot in the stomach. Edward McConnelly was was shot in the arm while unloading coal.
 
At a Sinn Féin Standing Committee meeting, Griffith said that with a third of the population in the six counties opposed to partition the Belfast Parliament could not function.

What would have been the reciprocal fraction for a Dail running a United Ireland?
 
What would have been the reciprocal fraction for a Dail running a United Ireland?
Difficult to say. Population figures are estimated for 1921 since there hadn't been a census since 1911, and the next will be in 1926 (in the South anyway). Working off 1926 figures, the IFS had a population of 2.97 million, NI had a population of 1.26 million. If we assume that everyone in the Free State was a nationalist of some sort and 420,000 Northern Irelanders were, that gives the island 3.39 million nationalists and 840,000 unionists. So roughly a quarter of the population.
 
Difficult to say. Population figures are estimated for 1921 since there hadn't been a census since 1911, and the next will be in 1926 (in the South anyway). Working off 1926 figures, the IFS had a population of 2.97 million, NI had a population of 1.26 million. If we assume that everyone in the Free State was a nationalist of some sort and 420,000 Northern Irelanders were, that gives the island 3.39 million nationalists and 840,000 unionists. So roughly a quarter of the population.

So entirely workable then.
 
So entirely workable then.
As you've been reading this thread for over 2 years, you'll have noticed there were many southern unionists/loyalists. There are none today. They either up stakes and emigrated or, over the course of a century, their descendants became nationalists. The same would have happened to what was the population of NI, and undoubtedly will happen when Ireland reunifies.
 
As you've been reading this thread for over 2 years, you'll have noticed there were many southern unionists/loyalists. There are none today. They either up stakes and emigrated or, over the course of a century, their descendants became nationalists. The same would have happened to what was the population of NI, and undoubtedly will happen when Ireland reunifies.
Paternal grandparents both moved from Donegal to NI in the late 20's so I have heard all about it.
 
As you've been reading this thread for over 2 years, you'll have noticed there were many southern unionists/loyalists. There are none today. They either up stakes and emigrated or, over the course of a century, their descendants became nationalists. The same would have happened to what was the population of NI, and undoubtedly will happen when Ireland reunifies.
But there are still plenty of Orangemen in Donegal and the other two old counties of Ulster. Plus chapters in Dublin. I think you discount the old Scottish/Irish disagreements going back into the mists of time. The Prods in Ulster being more a Scottish colony than anything to do with England bar Lizzy the one encouraging their migration to Ulster after the flight of the Earls. You just have to look at things in the west coast of Scotland with the Billy boys. A mirror image of the six counties.
 
Do you think you are correcting me or agreeing with me?
Just answering your question although not strictly accurate as it should be 51% of seats. So by your calculation on population alone Nationalist would have 75% of the vote and be clear winners anyway but I think the 1918 election was a bigger margin than that.
 
Just answering your question although not strictly accurate as it should be 51% of seats. So by your calculation on population alone Nationalist would have 75% of the vote and be clear winners anyway but I think the 1918 election was a bigger margin than that.

I'm fairly sure you haven't followed what was going on in that exchange.
 
But there are still plenty of Orangemen in Donegal and the other two old counties of Ulster. Plus chapters in Dublin. I think you discount the old Scottish/Irish disagreements going back into the mists of time. The Prods in Ulster being more a Scottish colony than anything to do with England bar Lizzy the one encouraging their migration to Ulster after the flight of the Earls. You just have to look at things in the west coast of Scotland with the Billy boys. A mirror image of the six counties.
It's not strictly true that the Ulster Prods are all of Scottish descent, the Planters came from both sides of the Anglo-Scottish border. They were the troublesome border reivers about whom George MacDonald Fraser writes and who James I/VI was more than happy to send packing to Ulster. The familiar names of Nixon, Crozier, Elliott, Armstrong, Graham (and Hume and Adams for that matter!) etc. were as common on the English side as on the Scottish side.

Furthermore the Plantation only covered the counties of Londonderry (or County Coleraine as it then was), Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. The counties of Antrim and Down, the two biggest counties in present-day Northern Ireland, were not planted because they already were solidly protestant with long-established British communities comprising Scots and English.

So with intermarriage over the years you could say the Ulster Prods are as much English - and indeed Irish - in descent as they are Scottish.
 
It's not strictly true that the Ulster Prods are all of Scottish descent, the Planters came from both sides of the Anglo-Scottish border. They were the troublesome border reivers about whom George MacDonald Fraser writes and who James I/VI was more than happy to send packing to Ulster. The familiar names of Nixon, Crozier, Elliott, Armstrong, Graham (and Hume and Adams for that matter!) etc. were as common on the English side as on the Scottish side.

Furthermore the Plantation only covered the counties of Londonderry (or County Coleraine as it then was), Tyrone, Fermanagh, Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan. The counties of Antrim and Down, the two biggest counties in present-day Northern Ireland, were not planted because they already were solidly protestant with long-established British communities comprising Scots and English.

So with intermarriage over the years you could say the Ulster Prods are as much English - and indeed Irish - in descent as they are Scottish.
Their temperment though is very much miserable Presbyterian lowland Scot not like your solid, charming, generous. happy go lucky Englishman.
 

Latest Threads

Top