Irish War of Independence centenary

Cabbage_man

Clanker
Keep it going!

The story of what is to come and how it plays out, will be heavily influenced by the events of past two years, both in the Free State and NI.

It’s all part of the same narrative.
 
Not quite written notes but the link below is an article about the diary entries of Frances Stephenson, Lloyd-George's secretary/mistress.

Reading this (and the material on Andy Cope - new to me - provided by @twentyfirstoffoot and @Tedsson) you really can't help but thinking what a shame it was that Mrs DeValera married a Yank.

If the British had granted Eamon his desire of dying for Ireland against a wall in Kilmainham in 1916, Ireland really could have been spared the Civil War. I am no fan of the decision to execute the leaders of the Rising but in hindsight if anyone had to be shot Dev should have been among them.

But his fortuitous escape (along with Mad Constance) meant that he was imbued with a sacred trust that could never compromise on the One True Faith of the Republic. You can see how Smuts was the obvious person for the British to send as a go-between, he had fought the British and then secured decent terms from them, but the problem was the Boers only fought for what they saw as their rights, not some form of Holy Grail that could never be sullied by earthly compromises.

Michael Collins, as a no-nonsense West Cork man and former Post Office worker in London, would have had no time for all that Blood Sacrifice, Cathleen Ni Houlihan/Deirdre of the Sorrows shite being pumped out by a bunch of Dublin poets and mystics. He just wanted to grab the best deal going on the best possible terms , with the option of getting a bit more later, before the Brits changed their minds.

That Collins ended up being the martyr and Dev became the political huckster was to be Ireland's tragedy in the 20th century.
 
Happy to edit the thread title to include the Civil War if that is the consensus.
I would like to see the thread continue but understandably we can hardly expect @Gary Cooper to keep us updated with the frequency he has been doing for the past year or so. The Civil War isn't so well-known as the War of Independence so it could be very enlightening.

On a side issue I wonder who designed the National Army's uniforms, with their soft caps, greatcoats and leather gaiters they are rather spiffing in comparison with the Tommies' somewhat drab uniforms.
 
I would like to see the thread continue but understandably we can hardly expect @Gary Cooper to keep us updated with the frequency he has been doing for the past year or so. The Civil War isn't so well-known as the War of Independence so it could be very enlightening.

On a side issue I wonder who designed the National Army's uniforms, with their soft caps, greatcoats and leather gaiters they are rather spiffing in comparison with the Tommies' somewhat drab uniforms.
Hugo Boss. He went on to greater things...
 
The Civil War isn't so well-known as the War of Independence so it could be very enlightening.
Yes I haven't seen any heroic books by Tim Pat Coogan about it. Songs by the Dubliners being sung in the pubs, or dramatic films by Ken Loach. Even the fim about big Mick ended at Bealnablath courtesy of a former British Army sniper. Did Tom Barry write about it in his book - you have read it haven't you?
 
Keep it going until the end of the Civil War. I have already ordered a case of beer and a large tub of pop corn.
You may need some blood pressure medication before then when the inevitable pictures/links of the British withdrawal are posted.
 
28 July 1921

Special Constable George Graham died in Newry General Hospital of wounds sustained on 28th April when his patrol had been ambushed in the town. Graham was age 22 and from Lisburn and had spent most of the Great War as a guest of the Kaiser.

Private Terence Steele, Gordon Highlanders died in the Curragh when he was accidentally shot by an officer dropping a revolver.

The confusion over Courts Martial continued as the House of Lords refused to issue a writ of prohibition in the case ruled on by the Master of the Rolls in Ireland a few days previously. The legal confusion was of great concern to government and the military since one of the big sticks they were waving at De Valera was the threat of an all out military campaign in southern Ireland under martial law. Macready had promised Lloyd George 100 executions a week if he made this happen and suddenly the law steps in to say they can’t do this. It's like the Grinch turning up for Christmas dinner.
 
Another good article on the Truce, far too long to quote in its entirety but I did like this bit

The number of IRA dead between 1917 and 1941 was 491, according to the newly published book The Dead of the Irish Revolution. By contrast there are 4,000 Irishmen remembered on the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing alone and there are other memorials and graveyards along the Western Front where reposes the remains of more Irishmen than were killed in the revolutionary years.

 

WRWalsh

Old-Salt
I am trying to get a list of serving RIC during tge conflict and infact from 1901 also of men who transferred to the Gardai. Any suggestions of public domain sources.
 
Yes I haven't seen any heroic books by Tim Pat Coogan about it. Songs by the Dubliners being sung in the pubs, or dramatic films by Ken Loach. Even the fim about big Mick ended at Bealnablath courtesy of a former British Army sniper. Did Tom Barry write about it in his book - you have read it haven't you?
You never saw Ken Loach's Wind That Shook The Barley, which very specifically deals with the Civil War?
 
I am trying to get a list of serving RIC during tge conflict and infact from 1901 also of men who transferred to the Gardai. Any suggestions of public domain sources.
This is a good starting point

As is
The Auxiliary Division of the RIC for those nice gentlemen volunteers
 
I am trying to get a list of serving RIC during tge conflict and infact from 1901 also of men who transferred to the Gardai. Any suggestions of public domain sources.

There is a book by John Reynolds that covers the RIC 1919-22 but only for Tipperary

46 Men Dead: The Royal Irish Constabulary In County Tipperary 1919-22.

Every little bit helps!
 
Yes I haven't seen any heroic books by Tim Pat Coogan about it. Songs by the Dubliners being sung in the pubs, or dramatic films by Ken Loach. Even the fim about big Mick ended at Bealnablath courtesy of a former British Army sniper. Did Tom Barry write about it in his book - you have read it haven't you?
There have been a few songs about the Civil War that i know of:

Anti-Treaty

"Take it down from the mast
"- About the executions of O'Connor,Mellows, and two anti-Treaty officers

"Galtee mountain boy"- young rebel captured and executed by Free State soldiers

"Drumboe martyrs"- again executions by Free State troops

Soldiers of '22- About rebels such as Liam Lynch



Pro-Treaty

Michael Collins
by Sean Dunphy-refers to the blokes who shot him as traitors

Michael Collins by the Wolfe Tones

Probably plenty more but not really my thing.

The Singing Flame by Ernie O'Malley is part of a trilogy about his experiences during the time

 
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There have been a few songs about the Civil War that i know of:

Anti-Treaty

"Take it down from the mast
"- About the executions of O'Connor,Mellows, and two anti-Treaty officers

"Galtee mountain boy"- young rebel captured and executed by Free State soldiers

"Drumboe martyrs"- again executions by Free State troops

Soldiers of '22- About rebels such as Liam Lynch



Pro-Treaty

Michael Collins
by Sean Dunphy-refers to the blokes who shot him as traitors

Michael Collins by the Wolfe Tones

Probably plenty more but not really my thing.

The Singing Flame by Ernie O'Malley is part of a trilogy about his experiences during the time


Not being a expert on local folk music, I have to ask to all those reading this thread.
How many of you grew up listening to singing at family occasions, that were historically significant.
 
Not being a expert on local folk music, I have to ask to all those reading this thread.
How many of you grew up listening to singing at family occasions, that were historically significant.

I mentioned this to someone this morning - I knew the words to Kevin Barry before I knew the words to the national anthem.

I also knew (albeit slightly incorrectly) the words and tune of Slattery's Mounted Foot - although I know now that that is more of a comic folk song about Irish military ineptitude (undeserved) rather than a "rebel song" (with lines like "And how the Cork Militia beat the Turks at Waterloo"). I guess, like a lot of folk songs, the words get changed to fit the circumstances.
 
I mentioned this to someone this morning - I knew the words to Kevin Barry before I knew the words to the national anthem.

I also knew (albeit slightly incorrectly) the words and tune of Slattery's Mounted Foot - although I know now that that is more of a comic folk song about Irish military ineptitude (undeserved) rather than a "rebel song" (with lines like "And how the Cork Militia beat the Turks at Waterloo"). I guess, like a lot of folk songs, the words get changed to fit the circumstances.
For some reason, I grew up listening to my fathers taste in music. Anyone else endure al Jolson or the great Caruso
It was only as I grew up discovering the bands played the tunes it was different words sung.
 
There have been a few songs about the Civil War that i know of:

Anti-Treaty

"Take it down from the mast
"- About the executions of O'Connor,Mellows, and two anti-Treaty officers

"Galtee mountain boy"- young rebel captured and executed by Free State soldiers

"Drumboe martyrs"- again executions by Free State troops

Soldiers of '22- About rebels such as Liam Lynch



Pro-Treaty

Michael Collins
by Sean Dunphy-refers to the blokes who shot him as traitors

Michael Collins by the Wolfe Tones

Probably plenty more but not really my thing.

The Singing Flame by Ernie O'Malley is part of a trilogy about his experiences during the time

I recall a song that was popular on the bus trips of my youth being "We're On the One Road". One lad, a diehard Chuck would refuse to sing it, saying it was "the Free State song".

Apparently given that the Republicans, like the Devil, had all the best tunes the Free Staters set out to write a song that could be just as rousing to be sung by them, urging everyone to get behind the new government.

If you examine the words that theory seems to make sense.

ETA: With regard to literature from the time I seem to recall Frank O'Connor's anthology of short stories Guests of the Nation (well worth reading) has a few stories relating to the Civil War.
 
Not being a expert on local folk music, I have to ask to all those reading this thread.
How many of you grew up listening to singing at family occasions, that were historically significant.
At singsongs in our house out-and-out political or "party" songs were frowned upon, partly because we would often have "mixed company" and it was considered to be very bad manners to embarrass guests and anyone who would do so would be considered a bit of a boor.*

But mainly because my family had a very strong musical tradition (unfortunately not inherited by me, I couldn't carry a tune in a bucket) and party sings were seen as simplistic and crude, devoid of musical worth. My family would insist on singing songs from operettas like The Bohemian Girl or the songs of Percy French. The sort of songs you'd hear on a Josef Locke album and whenever I hear those songs today I am immediately transferred back to the early 1970s, Sunday afternoons in the front room, the air blue with Senior Service cigarette smoke and the smell of spilt beer.

(* A joke I posted on another thread elsewhere, seems appropriate to repost here:

Two blokes wandering the streets of Glasgow one night desperately looking to find a party for a late-night swalley. Hearing the sounds of music they come to one house and arrive to find a come all'ye in full swing. However being of the Ibrox persuasion they note pictures of the Pope on the wall and the martyrs of 1916 so decide to keep their heads down. Alas they are spotted and called upon to oblige the company. One lad turns to the other and says

"you're the great singer, give 'em a wee number,"

"aw feck" says the other "sure I only know two songs and one of them's The Sash,"

"fer the luvva Christ dinnae be singin' The Sash here, wha's the other one?"

"it's a wee song called The Cry,"

"The Cry? That sounds nice, give 'em that one,"

"awright here goes, 'The Cry...was NAE SURRENDER!!!!'"

Ah, I see my taxi has arrived)
 
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