Irish War of Independence centenary

The problem with a Truce is that there are days when nothing happens. And local events that did take place haven't made the "big picture" history books.

This also brings us to the question of where do we end this thread. The Treaty was signed on 6th December 1921 so that's a cut-off date or we could just keep going with the Civil War rather than start a new thread.

Keep it going.

We need to get to the fun bit where they start killing each other rather than Brits.
 
A quote from Andy Cope a civil servant heavily involved in clandestine negotiations with Collins 1920 1921.

Over the years, I have had offers from various sources for my views and experiences but have turned all of them down because I regard the period (and also that following the Treaty) to be the most discreditable of your country’s history – it is preferable to forget it; to let sleeping dogs lie. ‘[3]

It is not possible for this history to be truthful … The I.R.A. must be shown as national heroes and the British Forces as brutal oppressors. Accordingly, the Truce and Treaty Will have been brought about by the defeat of the British by the valour of small and ill-equipped groups of irregulars. And so on. What a travesty it will be and must be.’[4
 
26 July 1921

Sir Charles O’Connor, Master of the Rolls in Ireland, ruled in favour of writs of habeas corpus that had been lodged with him by lawyers for two men detained by military courts. O’Connor’s reasoning as far as I can make out was that military tribunals were unconstitutional. The judgement led to a brief face-off between the military and the civil authorities, with General Macready threatening to arrest O’Connor. In the end Macready backed down.
When the head of the army is threatening to arrest one of the most senior judges in the country for having the audacity to uphold habeus corpus you really have reached the banana republic, South American junta stage (although some might say the deployment of state-sanctioned death squads had already achieved that particular accolade).

It was probably best that the British left (most of) Ireland when they did, their administration of the country by this stage was never going to be held up as the gold standard for liberal democracies around the world.
 
A quote from Andy Cope a civil servant heavily involved in clandestine negotiations with Collins 1920 1921.

Over the years, I have had offers from various sources for my views and experiences but have turned all of them down because I regard the period (and also that following the Treaty) to be the most discreditable of your country’s history – it is preferable to forget it; to let sleeping dogs lie. ‘[3]

It is not possible for this history to be truthful … The I.R.A. must be shown as national heroes and the British Forces as brutal oppressors. Accordingly, the Truce and Treaty Will have been brought about by the defeat of the British by the valour of small and ill-equipped groups of irregulars. And so on. What a travesty it will be and must be.’[4

There is a good article on Cope here: http://centaur.reading.ac.uk/67484/3/COPE ARTICLE DEFEAT BY DESIGN vers 8 ).pdf
 
When the head of the army is threatening to arrest one of the most senior judges in the country for having the audacity to uphold habeus corpus you really have reached the banana republic, South American junta stage (although some might say the deployment of state-sanctioned death squads had already achieved that particular accolade).

It was probably best that the British left (most of) Ireland when they did, their administration of the country by this stage was never going to be held up as the gold standard for liberal democracies around the world.

It also showed the IRA that you could get pretty much what you wanted from the barrel of a gun.

A belief that will stay with them in perpetuity.
 
When the head of the army is threatening to arrest one of the most senior judges in the country for having the audacity to uphold habeus corpus you really have reached the banana republic, South American junta stage (although some might say the deployment of state-sanctioned death squads had already achieved that particular accolade).
In fairness MacReady was possibly acting or threatening to act independently out of sheer frustration and the fact he backed down probably said more about the Rule of Law having primacy.
It was probably best that the British left (most of) Ireland when they did, their administration of the country by this stage was never going to be held up as the gold standard for liberal democracies around the world.
Again I refer you to Andy Cope above there has been layer after layer of lies about the 'nasty Brits' and the 'plucky little lads in Green'. Ireland pretty much ran itself with most administration and commerce being conducted by Irish people. I don't suggest it was a fair society, neither was it across the whole of UK, but the brutality and murder was in the main conducted by Irishmen against Irishmen on both sides.

Strangely the upper classes including the Royal Family carried on with their involvement in Ireland as soon as 1923 the 'wars' being a simple hiccup in history.
 
In fairness MacReady was possibly acting or threatening to act independently out of sheer frustration and the fact he backed down probably said more about the Rule of Law having primacy.

Again I refer you to Andy Cope above there has been layer after layer of lies about the 'nasty Brits' and the 'plucky little lads in Green'. Ireland pretty much ran itself with most administration and commerce being conducted by Irish people. I don't suggest it was a fair society, neither was it across the whole of UK, but the brutality and murder was in the main conducted by Irishmen against Irishmen on both sides.

Strangely the upper classes including the Royal Family carried on with their involvement in Ireland as soon as 1923 the 'wars' being a simple hiccup in history.
Rest assured I have no illusions about the "niceness" of the IRA either then or since, nor do I buy into the MOPE nonsense about British rule in Ireland. As I said a few pages back, by 1914 Ireland was actually extraordinarily well governed (at least by the standards of the previous few centuries, it was well-governed).

Ireland was finally being run by grown-ups in London and Dublin who saw that decent, fair, humane and even-handed treatment for Ireland could reap huge rewards in terms of peace and prosperity. Ireland and the Irish had finally achieved their rightful place as equal subjects within the United Kingdom and were largely content with their position in the Empire.

All that was required to keep Ireland secure and indeed loyal was a very modest measure of local self-rule within the UK that was sought by the constitutionally elected representatives of a majority of the Irish people.

But that was not to be granted to them and the rest is history. What might have been.
 
It would be interesting to see what written notes remain of the interactions between the pair of wiley statesmen.
Not quite written notes but the link below is an article about the diary entries of Frances Stephenson, Lloyd-George's secretary/mistress.

 
The problem with a Truce is that there are days when nothing happens. And local events that did take place haven't made the "big picture" history books.

This also brings us to the question of where do we end this thread. The Treaty was signed on 6th December 1921 so that's a cut-off date or we could just keep going with the Civil War rather than start a new thread.
Happy to edit the thread title to include the Civil War if that is the consensus.
 
And herein lies the problem.
Let's just square off the pro new thread treaty bunch on one side and the anti new thread treaty lot on the other. What could go wrong?

Seriously as long as we keep the style and chronology I don't mind which way it is done.
Meanwhile the last of my establishment supporting Irish family are now leaving Ireland most never to return.
 
A quote from Andy Cope a civil servant heavily involved in clandestine negotiations with Collins 1920 1921.

Over the years, I have had offers from various sources for my views and experiences but have turned all of them down because I regard the period (and also that following the Treaty) to be the most discreditable of your country’s history – it is preferable to forget it; to let sleeping dogs lie. ‘[3]

It is not possible for this history to be truthful … The I.R.A. must be shown as national heroes and the British Forces as brutal oppressors. Accordingly, the Truce and Treaty Will have been brought about by the defeat of the British by the valour of small and ill-equipped groups of irregulars. And so on. What a travesty it will be and must be.’[4
The complete letter is here, in the Bureau of Military History archives , worth reading. It's a pity Cope didn't give his account.

It also showed the IRA that you could get pretty much what you wanted from the barrel of a gun.

A belief that will stay with them in perpetuity.
Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Chairman Mao.

Keep it going.

We need to get to the fun bit where they start killing each other rather than Brits.
Bizarrely, that Civil War came about because the British wouldn't allow them to renounce the last vestiges of Britishness.

No Republic, an oath of loyalty to KIng George, Dominion status within the British Commonwealth, etc.. Terrible and immediate war if they didn't agree with it. Since some thought that the 'defeat of the British' had been brought about by the 'valour of small and ill-equipped groups of irregulars', it seemed they only had to continue with that strategy until the British capitulated.
 
The problem with a Truce is that there are days when nothing happens. And local events that did take place haven't made the "big picture" history books.

This also brings us to the question of where do we end this thread. The Treaty was signed on 6th December 1921 so that's a cut-off date or we could just keep going with the Civil War rather than start a new thread.
Keep it going until the end of the Civil War. I have already ordered a case of beer and a large tub of pop corn.
 

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