Irish War of Independence centenary

Ireland 1921: how republicans used their whiteness to win freedom

An interesting article in todays Guardian/Observer from Maurice Walsh and their connection with other events going on around the world. The world was in turmoil after a world war and pandemic. Old dynasties and empires had fallen and others were creaking at the seams.

His book - Bitter Freedom: Ireland in a Revolutionary World 1918-1923 is very good. I would highly recommend it.
Why don’t you just admit you are superior to the Irish in mind body and soul
aka you only input comments that reflect your disdain for those over the water

you sir remind me of that type that caused discontent fermenting sedition then blame others for your actions
in other words you are best described as a old fart
 
Plastic paddies then not real tater eaters then in Your opinion
Well the real tater eaters as you call them didn't seem to regard the Anglo Irish and southern Irish Protestants as 'real tater eaters' because they murdered many of them, burnt down their houses or drove them out of the country. The Protestant population was 10% in the 26 counties in the 1911 census. In the 1926 census the number was 3%. Ian Paisley used to make much of those figures.

Some other examples:

Boyle Somerville

An elderly retired 72 year old Anglo-Irish RN Admiral, whose murder was authorised by that hero of the revolution Tom Barry.

Revealed: Why 40,000 Protestant's fled Ireland in 4 years.

Killings at Coolacrease

The Guiness familly had to flee to England because of intimidatiion. They were Anglo Irish.

The Ulster generals were either of Ulster Scots or Norman descent like Montgomery.
 
A burst appendix sounds painful, are you suggesting he got what he deserved or that you can’t cheat fate.

your last line indicates just a hint of racism unless of course you intend to explain it away with a plausible explanation
By 'rather Irish' I was referring to the fact that IRA men were always being shot while attempting to escape by the Auxilliares and this man 'shot while attempting to escape' but WAS actually shot while trying to escape. Rather Irish as in 'to be sure to be sure.'
Why don’t you just admit you are superior to the Irish in mind body and soul
aka you only input comments that reflect your disdain for those over the water

you sir remind me of that type that caused discontent fermenting sedition then blame others for your actions
in other words you are best described as a old fart
I posted a link to the Guardian which I thought might be relevant and posted an explanation with the link about the author and how I liked the non partisan style of his book. I can't help the title of the article. Its the Guardian/Observer FFS. I explained that.

You however have to come out with petty, woke, virtue signalling comments about racism and about being superior to the Irish in mind, body and soul.

I freely admit I have little time for the IRA men who are killed or the circumstances in this thread. They are no different than the ones a half century later who looked to people like Barry and Breen for inspiration. Don't forget there are still people in Ireland who regard Collins as a sell out. I do have admiration for people like Emmet Dalton and Sean Mac Eoin. I have previously expressed this in comments on this thread.

Having read every thing on this thread from page 1 (and thanks to Gary for updating it every day) what do have is tremendous admiration for the men of the RIC of all ranks. Ordinary Catholic Irishmen who have borne the brunt of the IRA's murder campaign but have still attempted to maintain law and order (with exceptions like Broy and Nelligan who betrayed their comrades to murders). I am sure a lot of them wanted either home rule or independence but didn't like the way the nationalists were carrying it out. Assasinations, murders, executing suspected informers without evidence or trial. Murdering their unarmed comrades in church or in front of their famillies at home.

Even the Catholic church spoke out about that. Annoyed at having to clean up the blood I suppose. It didn't make any difference. The IRA just ignored the church when it suited them. I have expressed my admiration for the RIC many times on posts in this thread. Also there were many Irishmen in the Auxilliares and no doubt even some in the English Regiments of the British Army mentioned such as 1 Essex, 2 Hampshires and the OX and Bucks.

The last line of your post is just pompous and you have to finish it off with a personal insult. I regret I responded to this and have now deleted that post. I did expect better than this from you. I thought you were a good poster, but in this I was sadly mistaken. If I was being generous I would put it down to lock-down and being too close to the bottle.
 
1 March 1921

Cahrlie Daly, ex-serviceman, aged 23 was shot dead at Glanmire Railway Station where he worked as a parcels porter. Daly was a member of the IRA who claimed that he was shot as a reprisal for the killings the day before in Cork. The RIC said he was killed for refusing an order from the IRA to remove goods from the station. A third possibility is that he was killed by mistake for another Charles Daly who was an IRA officer.

A firefight between two army patrols and a group of IRA men in Tipperary at aplace called Ballynamrossagh saw Volunteer Thomas Looby killed. Looby was aged 19 and from Lattin. A mna named John Hayes was fatally wounded and died in Tipperary Military Hospital. Cornelius Power was wounded but survived.

Thomas Devaney was shot and fatally wounded by a military patrol as he attempted to flee from his house in Toomeveara, Co. Tipperary. Devaney was aged 23 and in the IRA. His brother James had been killed six weeks before.

Thomas Cotter, a 55 year old Protestant farmer, was shot at his home near Bandon, Co. Cork. He was of course, a spy.

Patrick Roche, RIC pensioner, was shot dead at his home at Causeway, Co. Kerry by the IRA who said he had passed information on an ambush in the area to the RIC in November.

Alfred Brock, a Black and Tan with about six months service, died after being shot in the stomach in Rosscarbery RIC Barracks, Co. Cork. It appears to have been an accident.

Daniel Casey was accidentally shot by the military in Cork as a group of civilians fled from a checkpoint in the city.

IRA GHQ decided to form five Northern Divisions. 1st Northern Division consisted of the four Donegal brigades and the Derry City Battalion. Frank Carney was initially the Divisional O/C. The 2nd Northern Division was comprised of the rest of the County Derry and the three Tyrone brigades. Eoin O’Duffy was O/C assisted by Charlie Daly, a GHQ organiser.
 
Ireland 1921: how republicans used their whiteness to win freedom

An interesting article in todays Guardian/Observer from Maurice Walsh and their connection with other events going on around the world. The world was in turmoil after a world war and pandemic. Old dynasties and empires had fallen and others were creaking at the seams.

His book - Bitter Freedom: Ireland in a Revolutionary World 1918-1923 is very good. I would highly recommend it.

'The Irish representative at the peace conference in Versailles in 1919, Seán T O’Kelly, had been bitterly disappointed at his failure to secure a meeting with President Woodrow Wilson. “It seems,” he told an American journalist, “that the blacks and yellows, all colours and races, may be heard before the conference except the Irish.” '

It is quite astonishing how when it came to Ireland Woodrow Wilson appeared to forget all about one of his absolute key demands to secure the peace of Europe, the right to self-determination for small nations.

It is said that the poor man became driven to distraction during the Paris negotiations as not just Poles and Czechs (people he had actually heard of) demanded their own nations but Ruthenians and Slovakians and Slavonians and Wallachians and Moldovians and Bessarabians and Galicians and Silesians and Podolians and what have you.

You could have a bit of sympathy with him, how can he possibly have been expected to know about all of them? But he must surely have been aware, given that he was a professor of western history and had been a governor of New Jersey, elected on a Democrat ticket, of a certain small western European nation that had a very long and well-versed claim to self-determination.
 

slab

Old-Salt
You really don't get it, do you? The Irish are irretrievably enjoined to the UK by virtue of language and geography, 800 years of conquest, hundreds of years of our manpower serving in your armies and fighting your wars for you and millions of people who built your roads, canals, factories, bridges...and the little matter of the 300,000 who served in your factories in WW 2 and the 50,000 men who never came home from the battlefields of WW 1 and many thousands more in the second one. As for Europe, we only consider ourselves European since 1973, because of the political and financial convenience of doing so to get us out of cycles of poverty, since mass emigration wasn't really doing it for us. The scum in the IRA represent a tiny portion of us, just like the Loyalist scum represent a tiny portion of you. We really aren't your enemy.
Well said!!
 
Gentleman and other ranks I apologise for diverting the thread over a point of racism that may have or may not been intended


However I am going to leave this here, for you all to consider if I am suffering from alcohol and lockdown
Or just maybe I spotted a genuine racist comment

2C1A5344-C407-41E1-A41E-929B4DF4D236.jpeg
 
By 'rather Irish' I was referring to the fact that IRA men were always being shot while attempting to escape by the Auxilliares and this man 'shot while attempting to escape' but WAS actually shot while trying to escape. Rather Irish as in 'to be sure to be sure.'

In my experience Irish people don't go around saying that:

1614629757035.png
 
Gentleman and other ranks I apologise for diverting the thread over a point of racism that may have or may not been intended


However I am going to leave this here, for you all to consider if I am suffering from alcohol and lockdown
Or just maybe I spotted a genuine racist comment

View attachment 553676
You had no answer to any of the points that I made in my post replying to your accusation, but had to make another woke virtue signalling insinuation of racism to make your self look good with your mate bohs man, and then spend hours searching through my posts to find something taken totatally out of context you sad, sad, sad old man.

You decided to divert Gary Coopers excellent thread to make yourself look smart. Go back to your bottle. If you want to see racism you only need to go to Scotland and look at a million SNP supporters and their hatred of the English. Especially in Glasgow.
 

You were a policeman were you not, so you will under stand that if you say something Without checking your facts that makes you irrelevant.

You‘re welcome to visit racist Scotland anytime you wish
Glasgow may even surprise you with the hatred of the English

Calling me a lush is easy, call me anything you want it’s arrse where the mods can sift sort and square it away


Thank you for your service any input into this thread that has actual content not obsessed auxie platitudes
 
2 March 1921

Sean O'Brien, Chairman of the Rural District Council, died of injuries received the previous night in Charleville, Co. Cork. On the evening of March 1st the IRA fired on a Constable Quinn as he returned to the RIC barracks. Quinn escaped uninjured. About 8.30 pm two men came to O’Brien’s door, shot him and threw a grenade into the house. Before he died O’Brien made a statement that they were two Black and Tans.

Thomas Mullen was shot while attempting to escape at Clonbern, Co. Galway. Even General Macready went so far as to say that the story invented by the police was nonsense.

Constable James Nixon died of wounds he received when he was accidentally shot by another RIC man on February 7th. Nixon was from Co. Mayo, age 34, with 11 years service in the RIC.

5373574 Private M. Robins died of wounds received in an ambush in Co. Clare back in November. Robins was in the Ox & Bucks LI.

Denis O’Brien a 70 year old coachman failed to stop when challenged by a sentry in Cork and was shot and killed.
 
Most of those were Ulster Protestants, Anglo Irish or just born in Ireland like Kitchener.
There were Irish/ Anglo-Irish professional soldiers born all over the place, most went abroad somewhere in the Empire. As a random example, Lt Col J. H. Patterson, from Longford, most famous for shooting the man-eating lions of Tsavo and being played by Val Kilmer in The Ghost and the Darkness. All such now gone.

The only Catholic Irish one I know (must be others) of was General Thomas Kelly-Kenny. He was commissioned 'without purchase' (no money?) in 1858. At the Battle of Paardeberg he had trapped General Cronje's Boers in a bend of the Modder River and planned to dig in and shell the Boers into submission. Kitchener over-ruled him, ordered a frontal assault and got the infantry shredded on Bloody Sunday. Roberts arrived, over-ruled Kitchener, dug in and shelled Cronje. I get the impression that Kelly-Kenny was not quite a gentleman/our sort of chap.

Alistair McGowan traced an ancestor on 'Who Do You Think You Are?' He'd thought the family came from Scotland, it turned out the ancestor was Irish, had enlisted in the East India Companies army and had made it to Colonel Major-General from private. He'd have never got a commission in the regular army.
 
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Cabbage_man

Clanker
There were Irish/ Anglo-Irish professional soldiers born all over the place, most went abroad somewhere in the Empire. As a random example, Lt Col J. H. Patterson, from Longford, most famous for shooting the man-eating lions of Tsavo and being played by Val Kilmer in The Ghost and the Darkness. All such now gone.

The only Catholic Irish one I know (must be others) of was General Thomas Kelly-Kenny. He was commissioned 'without purchase' (no money?) in 1858. At the Battle of Paardeberg he had trapped General Cronje's Boers in a bend of the Modder River and planned to dig in and shell the Boers into submission. Kitchener over-ruled him, ordered a frontal assault and got the infantry shredded on Bloody Sunday. Roberts arrived, over-ruled Kitchener, dug in and shelled Cronje. I get the impression that Kelly-Kenny was not quite a gentleman/our sort of chap.

Alistair McGowan traced an ancestor on 'Who Do You Think You Are?' He'd thought the family came from Scotland, it turned out the ancestor had enlisted in the East India Companies army and had made it to Colonel Major-General from private. He'd have never got a commission in the regular army.

William Bernard Hickie was a major-general in World War 1, and was of Irish Catholic stock.

He seems to have come from a long line of soldiers, supported Irish Home Rule, was outspoken against the B&T’s conduct in Ireland, and later became a senator in the Irish Free State.

He commanded the 16th (Irish) Division during WWI, and was a second Boer War vet.

There must be plenty more like him... but don’t want to drift from this excellent thread.

But he is a good example of this complex period of Irish history, and the multitude of motivations that brought Irish men into the British army, who served with honour and distinction, and latterly adopted republican or nationalist sympathies.

Edit to add...

How could I forget Brigadier Eric Edward ‘Chink’ Dorman Smith!
 
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